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In Over My Head's Connecting to the Ocean season was made possible with support from the Ocean Frontier Institute Module I and Memorial University.

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Well, I'm in over my head no one told me tryin' to keep my footprint small was harder than I thought it could be. I'm in over my head, what do I really need? Tryin' save the planet oh will someone please save me? Tryin' to save the planet, or will someone please save me?

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Welcome to In Over My Head. I'm Michael Bartz. While connecting to the ocean and exploring small-scale fisheries and governance, I want to learn how locals connect to the ocean and think about what a possible transformation might look like when it comes to governance and small-scale fisheries. This is connecting to the ocean Part six, connection and transformation. So what's your connection to the ocean?

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I'm a city dweller but we do love the, the ocean and there's a when we go away, there's a piece and a tranquility and a way to recharge our, our batteries that just can't be found anywhere else. And, and, and, and that's something to preserve.

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I wanna start this episode by highlighting two people who are connecting youth to the ocean and getting more people on the water. My first conversation was with the fellow who spent his entire career getting kids to care about the ocean.

(01:39):
My name's Jan Negrijn and I'm retired, but I call myself an ocean education specialist after about 40 years of working in the field, I figure I earned that title. I started many years ago at the Marine Institute. I've had close to 30 years there, and quite a wide variety of areas that I taught in. But I ended up my career teaching a lot of marine environmental programs which had quite a large conservation element to it. As part of that, in 2004, I started a company called Coastal Connections, which was an educational tour boat company, I guess you'd call it. And what we did was we took school children out on the boat on our 42 foot cabin boat that was all fitted out for oceanographic and biological research. And we, well, we designed our programs so that very subtly they would fall in love with the ocean and end up caring about the ocean and wanting to do things that help the ocean. And that was very fulfilling. And I did that for 14 years.

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Great. Yeah. And so those coastal connections so what would that look like? So the students would come onto the boat and, and kind of walk me through what their experience might be like.

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Our boat would only take 12 people. It was designed that way, particularly because we didn't want too many people on the boat. You know, you can't reach them all. You can't talk to everyone when you get more than 12. So normally the classes would be at least 24, and so we divide them in half, half would be on the beach doing beach sands and looking at nursery areas in the seaweeds near the beaches. So our collecting seaweed or doing squid dissections or whatever on the beach. And the others would come on the boat and we'd have a little orientation to the boat and to the program that we're going to do. And then off we'd go. And we had previously set a number of pots, which which they would pull up. And depending on the animals that we caught in the pots, that would be a, a kind of learning of opportunity, you know, an opportunity to teach something about that particular species.

(04:16):
We often saw whales and dolphins and so on, so we talked about that. We did plankton toes and we had microscopes on board. We had an ROV, so we would let them fly the ROV over the seabed and, and see what they could see. And in some cases pick up, it turned into a game sometimes who could pick up the bottle that was laid there on the seabed deep water deep water camera where we could see down in, up to a thousand meters and a sonar side scan sonar. So we taught all that and it was quite a rounded experience, but we'd also go along the shoreline and we'd see eagles and kingfishers and, you know, little sandpipers and so on. We were trying, the program was called Sand, Sea, and Sky. So we were trying to integrate everything together and see how it all fit together. And gradually you could see that they would slowly bond with the ocean. And that it was a situation where a lot of kids who had never been on the water before and were a little bit nervous when they started, they were fine and they loved it. And we always had a lot of feedback that I'd meet parents and say, you know, my child was out with you two years ago and they're still talking about it

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Over the 14 years. How many children did you have in this program?

(05:44):
Well, we never kept track of the numbers, but generally speaking, we had somewhere close to 5,000 children over the over the 14 years. But the whole point was to try to get the youth to care about the ocean that, you know, to kind of bond with it, to care about it and therefore wanna protect it. And also to think about possible careers, marine careers, marine related careers. And I know that it worked in some instances because parents or, or even the, the youth themselves, you know, they, they'd be going to the Marine Institute and they say, the reason I went to the Marine Institute was because I went out on that trip with you, and I just fell in love with it.

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Oh, lovely. That's great. Yeah. And, and do you remember, like, when you were out with those groups, do you remember some of kind of the reactions of, of the students in when they were falling in love with the ocean? Do you remember what that kind of looked or sounded like?

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There's a kind of look of wonder that comes across their faces that you can identify as wonder. I mean, it's obvious when you see it. And if they were holding a deep water snow crab, for instance, and, and it was moving and they were holding it and they were looking at it and, and they were just mesmerized by it. Or if you went to see, you know, if you were going along and all of a sudden there was a pot of dolphins swimming along. I mean, the, they'd be jumping up and down and even the cool kids forgot to be cool. They'd be jumping up and down and waving just as well as the rest of them. And it was it was a lot of fun. Whales of course, are, are always popular, but even the smaller things like plankton, you know, the small plants and animals that, that live in the ocean, we would do a plankton tow and pull them up and and put them in these little handheld microscopes that had a little clear plastic box. And they could, the plankton could swim around and they could see them swim around and they would just, you know, they they would be verbally excited by seeing these things and saying that my, I'm never going swimming in the ocean again. . Yeah, if I swallow that.

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I know too much. I know too much, I know too much. Yeah.

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But yeah, or sometimes it took the form of just somebody there staring off into the horizon and, you know, almost in a contemplative way, you know, that they, that they were quiet and just absorbing everything. And, you know, when we were going back to the dock at lunchtime to change over with the group on the shore, you know, they'd be yelling back and forth, we saw this, we saw that I, I touched the crab, you know, all of that sort of thing. So, but that's fine during the time that you, you have the trip, but the more important thing is I think that months later they were still talking about it. And I think that's kind of a, you know, that's where the rubber hits the road in a sense, in that it is effective because they're still enthusiastic and still talking about it months later.

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Was there anything else you wanted to talk about with your education and working with youth? Anything that comes to mind

(09:00):
From the perspective of the future? I think it's so important to invest in the youth. If we want people who are going to be good marine biologists and good oceanographers good sea captains or whatever, we've got to get our children interested in the ocean and get them to care for it to be stewards. People don't like the word steward because it kind of gives that that old kind of thing that you're, you're lording it over the ocean and you're going to determine what happens. But I can't think of another word for it that you're looking after the ocean caring for it. And that comes naturally to a handful of people. But I think the more the more people are exposed to it and nurtured along it to more, we need the brightest brains to deal with the complex problems that are in front of us when it comes to the ocean. And really, I mean, you can't live anywhere in Canada and not be affected by the oceans in some way.

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Next I went to Petty Harbour to chat with a woman who's giving youth a truly unique fishing experience. I'd like to introduce you to...

(10:14):
Kimberly Orren, executive director and co-founder of Fishing for Success.

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So Kimberly, tell me about Fishing for Success. What's, what is this?

(10:23):
It's a nonprofit social enterprise museum located in Petty Harbour, Newfoundland and Labrador. Basically, we started because we wanted to teach children to fish. And when you start to teach children to fish, you find out about all the other inequities and issues around that. The reason I started this project was because of a, you know, my ecological, like climate change, grief. And as a high school science teacher, I, you know, felt I was happy teaching about, you know electron configuration and, you know, all of the cool chemistry stuff, but I just felt like maybe young people weren't getting outside anymore and weren't connecting with nature and weren't especially connecting with the ocean, weren't understanding the great changes that were happening in the natural world. And maybe I wasn't making a difference that I thought I could be making if I was maybe leading them the place that I first got excited about science, which was hauling out fish guts and hanging out at the wharf.

(11:33):
You know, really connecting with those basic places where humans interacted with the natural world. Because like right now we're sitting in this box and I'm surrounded by these sound panels, and it's just a very, you know, really is kind of an unnatural place to be. So starting a project to reconnect children to the ocean, to nature as a way to address my own climate change grief, and make a difference somehow. One, you know, one child at a time, one family at a time. I started feeling like this in the early two thousands. I quit teaching, I went back to graduate school and fisheries and aquatic sciences and pursued a master's Ph.D. program, which I didn't finish. I got all the coursework done, and when this property was available, I purchased it with my savings. And then I basically said to my advisors, well, I'm moving to Newfoundland and teaching kids to fish . So here I am.

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You know, it's interesting when you go to speak to big funders, they're leery of providing grant dollars to take kids out on the North Atlantic to go fishing. I guess they seem to think that that's risky or something. And then when you say you wanna give the kids sharp knives and teach 'em how to process fish, then they really are leery of it. So, you know, how are you gonna pay for something like this? So you start tourism experiences, authentic tourism experiences in the handline fishery, historic handline fishery here in Petty Harbour. And so summer camps will bring kids to us or nonprofits that we wanna partner with who have, say, are offering services for marginalized groups of young people that we really want to provide impactful and transformative experiences for. And so that's where we we try to, to reach and provide these great experiences, this, you know, this shared human heritage of, of fishing.

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And, and this place itself, like you gave us a bit of a tour, which is very lovely. Yeah, it's got, it's got such a, an interesting feeling to it, you know, there's a lot of reclaimed things, a lot of even history within the, the walls that you showed us. So I found that really fascinating that the place itself even has a feeling to it, right? It's very welcoming. Yeah.

(13:52):
Oh, I'm glad you felt that. You know, I hope that when people are looking at it from, you know, just across Petty Harbour River here, I hope that it looks welcoming from just across the river, the bright colours, the, you know, the murals, the pride dory that, you know, people are like, what's going on over there? What's happening? And and they, they want to come over and participate and, and join in. And that fishing becomes something that, you know, we've labelled it commercial and recreational, and those two terminologies aren't something really that are accessible to a lot of people anymore because commercial fishery is like, it's a big deal to get involved in that. And a recreational fishery, like that's expensive to buy a boat and go out on the ocean, and it requires a lot of knowledge that many people don't have anymore. So, you know, how do you reconnect people with something that really is such a basic human experience? And it used to be, and it should be once again.

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And so where do you feel like fishing for success fits? Is it kind of, it's more on that, that sustenance for, for your soul and and for yourself, right?

(14:58):
Yeah, absolutely. It's yeah, sustenance for your soul, subsistence fishery as food. And trying to promote that once again in what does it look like to provide that for people again, and not just fish as a commodity for commercial fishing and not just fish as recreational. Because one of the things that I try to remind people is that when you teach young children to fish, we're not going to promote fishing as recreational if we're going to kill an animal. Like how is that recreational? So having that discussion with children about where food comes from and that animals oftentimes die when humans eat. And so, you know, we're part of the big food web, we're part of nature. We belong in it, we're embedded in it. And so how can we be better predators? And that discussion about fish feel pain too, and they are beings in this, in this place. And, you know, kids are like, oh, okay. And it's their first experience with it. And it I think they, I think they, they get it, you know, I mean, humans are part of nature.

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And do you kind of maybe see a change in them when you're, when you're sharing that information with them and you're connecting them with, with their food?

(16:12):
You definitely can see the wheels turning in their head. And so when you provide them with an artwork to work through as they're doing the physical work of the artwork, you can see that they're thinking and processing it. And so it's some quiet time for them to think about it. And then as they take the fish home as food all processed as fillets, it's, you know, it's a sense of pride for them to bring that home because that's, you know, that's what humans did. Hunter gatherers bringing food home to the family. And so right away, if we're talking about connecting young people with oceans and oceans and climate and all wrapping together, now they're like, oh my god, that fish came outta the ocean. They start to connect, okay, now I see why oceans are so important. My food just came out of it. And so they start to see things without you having to say it. So it's much more meaningful than, than you saying it. 'cause You've just done this fishing trip and they've just taken food that they're going to eat and share with their families out of the water. And it becomes, yeah, it becomes very real.

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And even, you know, like again, going back to that kind of connection to the ocean place, you know, if you're getting your food shipped in, even you just don't have that connection, right?

(17:21):
No, absolutely. And you know, food is, food is culture and heritage and it's sharing and it's sitting down around the table and it's telling the story of, you know, how you got the food and it's a family recipe that you're going to prepare it with. And so there's so much more to food than just having someone ship it in for you. And then also talking about, again, climate change. What is, what is the impact on this whole dynamic environment look like? Because the earth is more than 70% covered in water and not land. And we forget that as land dwellers, that we're actually clinging to less than 30% of the surface. We really should be spending more time at the edge of the water thinking about what that looks like. And yet, you know, we're not doing anything to get our kids there and get our kids thinking about the ocean and its impact.

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Tell me about some of the educational programs you offer at Fishing for Success.

(18:17):
Right. So one of our favourite is Girls Who Fish. It's about getting girls and women, getting them in the boat. You know, we hope we get some nans and some aunts and sisters and girls. And we've had girls participating as young as four. And it's all about getting us near the water. We'll, can't get in the boat, we'll go hiking if we can't go outside, we'll meet here in this space and we'll learn to weave rope or just sit and chat and have some tea and cookies. But it's all about empowering women to take on that space of going outside and lighting a campfire themselves and not letting the guys do it or take the fish off the hook themselves and not letting the, the fellas do it. Because we tend to, in our society, turn over those outdoor activities or let the guys do it.

(19:08):
And that takes away the joy of us learning to do those things ourselves. And the cool thing about it too is it provides a lot of opportunity for young women to be a core volunteers for some of our really deep, I dunno, almost spiritual connections with other women who come to Newfoundland and Labrador from around the world. So whether they're newcomers or whether they're indigenous women who've come to St. John's. So we have other programs that Girls Who Fish were volunteer for, and so we just have a lot of fun sharing fishing with other women from around the world. So it's, it's, it's great. So so that's restarting. So I hope to see lots of women show up for that. We also are starting up the sea to school program to connect youth in schools as fishing as a cornerstone for ocean literacy and food security issues. And so we hope to build that program. We right now have pilot projects with St. Bonds and Holy Heart of Mary here in St. John's. So we're looking forward to expanding that.

(20:15):
Yeah. Does that involve more of like hands-on learning, getting on the boat, things like that?

(20:19):
Yes. Hands-on learning. They get to hold the sharp knives and cut out cod tongues like kids used to do back in the day here in Newfoundland and Labrador.

(20:27):
And, and how old were they again? Sorry.

(20:29):
Well, we're expanding it now to start it kindergarten. Let's get 'em started early. You know, research tells us that young people start thinking about what they wanna be when they grow up by the age of nine. So we really wanna get them in the boat as soon as we can. And you can see in their face when they're holding their bag of fish or holding up their fish or just spending time out here, you can see in their face that there's some something going on. You can see that the experience out here has made an impact on them and it's gonna sit with them. So I wonder down the road what it's gonna blossom into.

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Next. I interviewed one researcher who's explored all the ways Newfoundlanders connect to the ocean.

(21:12):
My name is Monica Engel and I'm a human dimensions researcher.

(21:15):
So you are part of the submodule of informing governance responses in a changing ocean called perception, values, and knowledge. Could you maybe just give me kind of a brief summary of what that sub-module was about?

(21:26):
Yeah, so that was about learning how coastal people in Newfoundland perceive and leave their connection with the ocean and their awareness of what's happening around them in terms of the changes, like the physical changes in the ocean or the, in the fisheries or anything that they're seeing around it. It links with the connection and awareness part, and then the values, how they, they value the ocean if it's like it's intrinsic value or it's just like an economic value, like from where they take the, their livelihoods or it's more validated to history and culture and tradition or like family related. So like the whole point was to under really understand, or start to trying to understand, because it's so, it's like as big as the ocean is a complex thing to understand, but how we relate and connect with this environment.

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Within your specific research, what did that involve as far as what were you doing? You were, you were talking to locals, right?

(22:26):
Correct. So I basically drove around the island. I selected 40 different coastal communities in Newfoundland and randomly selected people. So I was knocking on people's doors, 1600 doors and just inviting people to share their views about the ocean. And then I had this questionnaire that was prepared in advance, of course, and tested, and it was all based on literature about the ocean and, and environmental psychology and conservation psychology and things like that. And then I would I use a method called drop off pickup method. So for those who would accept to participate in the study and share their views, they would take the questionnaire, keep with them for a day or two, and then I would return and collect a questionnaire so they would have time to reflect and think about those questions. And then the interesting part is that when I would go back to collect the questionnaires, that's when the conversations happened and the really interesting conversations happened.

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Tell me more about that. Do you have any kind of memories about them?

(23:26):
Oh my God, yes. There's this lady and I'm working on a side book project now, and I'm, that book is for her. I'm dedicating that book for her. She made me cry. She's from Torbay. One day we went there to collect a questionnaire and then she, she just started thanking me for everything, for like the opportunity to just stop and think about the ocean. And she was like, I'm so grateful for that, because I never stopped to just think. And I see it every day. We all take it for granted. I used to do to go swimming with my brothers here and like, just, just start telling me all those stories from her childhood. And then she was crying. I was crying. It was like a big thing, , and was like, oh my god. Yeah. So that was like a really like emotional story sharing moment that I had.

(24:11):
And, and I think about her all the time and she wrote me a letter and she put that inside the questionnaire. When she returned the questionnaire to me, it's like this whole thing is for her because it was so sweet and beautiful. There are other stories too, like, that was around Christmas the first time I went around the island, and some people just leave like chocolates for me or like notes and like, just thanking for the opportunity to stop and think. So I think that's one of the great gifts of working this way because it's not like in an interview setting where you have to say something on spot, you have time to think. So people had time to think and for some they never stopped to think about the ocean because it's just in their, you know, front yard or backyard. It's just part of their lives and they had a chance to do it.

(24:54):
And for a lot of people there was like life change, not life changing, like a big event, but like they were really happy with the opportunity to actually do it. And they expressed that they wanted to express and tell me that. So that was quite interesting. And of course all these stories of, you know, loss in the sea or like how things change when their kids or, and now like plastics around, you know, on the coastal line and all those other less emotional happy stories, but things that they're seeing the change they're seeing over time. Yeah.

(25:27):
Was that an unexpected kind of reaction?

(25:30):
Well, what I was kind of surprised is that I went to several places and like tiny places to you, and there were complaints about pollution everywhere. That's like, doesn't matter where you are, there are plastics in pollution everywhere, and you think like Newfoundland and some really remote places, you wouldn't see it or wouldn't find it. Right. But that was quite clear and evident. Lots of concern about well decline fish stocks, fish population climate change, and like poor management of the waters here. So there's a lot of complaints and concern about management that comes from, you know, different levels of governance, especially from like older folks that were being interviewed. But the pollution part was more like a surprise for me because I was everywhere. It was across in every place. There were complaints about this and how it changed, how it's like, it's getting worse and worse, like waste poor waste management.

(26:27):
Yeah. So it seems like people who live here, who work here and, and their families have been raised here, they have a strong connection to the ocean, right?

(26:35):
Oh, they do. And yeah, with this place, there's something magical about Newfoundland that it's like, people here are very proud of this island and I've been here for 10 years and I'm proud of this island too. But yeah, there's a really strong deep connection with the ocean. Some people, they even say that, yes, we take it for granted, but it's like, it's a connection that goes through like a family history and like things they, some people would just do. It's like it's tradition. There's a sense of identity with this place. There was one day, and, and I always remember this story too. I was at the airport, we just landed and then there was this guy, he was, we were just landing and waiting to get out of the plane, and you are inside the plane, you can't smell anything from outside, right?

(27:23):
So this guy was like, oh my God, I can't smell the ocean again. I know I'm home. And but this smell of the ocean, the fresh smell, the salty smell that you've, you can feel when you land here and you are here, that instantly connects you to the water and you know you're in Newfoundland. And I think that after a while you don't, you don't feel it anymore, but it's there. It's here. And it's a way that people feel this connection, even though it, that's one of the unseen connections with the ocean. It's like, there is, there's a connection through fishing, there's connection through like, you know, people who have lost someone in the sea. So you have a different kind of connection. Someone who came by boat who take the ferry every day, you know, that work for the Coast Guard, whatever, this, the, the way they use the ocean.

(28:11):
There are different types of connections, but there's this more emotional connection with the ocean and through the senses. So this is something that I've been exploring more lately on my other research, which is quite interesting, is like this unseen connections, like they smell and, and, and the fog and just like sitting by the sea. 'cause A lot of people just like, they're, you know, having a rough day, they just go up the cliff and they just sit there for a while and okay, I'm ready to go back home. And also, this is also a connection that's quite strong here. And it's, it's fascinating.

(28:44):
Mm-Hmm, . Yeah. And I feel like with that unseen connection, you really have to be here to experience it, right?

(28:50):
Yes, you do. Because it's so subtle and yeah, it's really exploring your senses and even like taste the food. So the fish you eat, that's a connection with the ocean and the taste of fresh cod. It's different from the salt cod you're gonna get in South America that comes from here. It's like, it's not the same. So like if you go fishing and then you catch the cod and then it's fresh and then you eat that same day, you are like, it's part of the ocean, it's here, it's in you and you're eating it, you're tasting it. So all those like different ways to experience the ocean, which is fascinating because it's not so obvious. It's not like, yeah, I'm going fishing, or I'm just like swimming, which is, it's cold, so yes, you're gonna feel it or you know, like surfing, it's different. It's like, it's a, an inner connection with, with the ocean.

(29:43):
Yeah. And how do you think that that maybe changes the people here, that unseen connection?

(29:48):
Oh my God, that's a question that I'm still trying to figure out the answer. And that's my goal is to understand at least have you know, some understanding of how we can connect with water so strongly. And it's just like by feeling it how that connection happens, right? Even like, you know, those fishers that have been fishing for their entire life, there's a strong bond with the sea, and it's like, yes, it's dangerous, you can die there. You dunno what you're gonna catch if you're gonna get fish or not. But, and there are a lot of people that they would never stop doing that. It's like, no, I'm not just, you know, I'm not stopping fishing or not stop going out with the boat and whatever. So yeah, there's, there's like a, a mystery link that connects us with the sea. Once you start peeling out the onion of our, our different ways we connect to the sea, it's one thing lead to another.

(30:42):
And yeah, it's not, it's not a straightforward answer or way to explain it. What I would say from my own personal experience, the more you spend close to the water, the more you wanna be close to the water, you start developing this stronger relationship with the water. And that's something that I wasn't. I grew up two hours away from the sea. So I, I would go, like in the summer, my summer vacation would be on the beach and I loved it, but I never lived by the ocean until I came to this island. So this was the first time that I spent so much time. And the ocean is like, it's in my background, my backyard, I see it every day, and I can't stay away from it for too long. Now I have to be here, I have to, you know, feel it and smell it and just be close to the water.

(31:29):
So I think time close to the water and the yes, the geography will make a big difference in, you know, strengthening your connection with the sea in a way, a more obvious connection with the sea, the more direct connection. It's like, yes, I'm here, I'm by the water, I can smell it, I can touch it, it's cold, or it's not so cold. And yes, I'm one with the ocean. Now, if you are away, you might have this connection, but it's a different kind. And the longer you spend with it, the more you want. At least for me.

(31:59):
. Mm-Hmm, . Yeah, no, that's interesting. Yeah. And I guess you wouldn't miss it until you are away from it, right?

(32:03):
Exactly. Once you experience something, you know it, right? So like, if people had more chances of getting closer to the water or like going to places, you know, like even if you can't swim or like be in the ocean, but like getting closer to it and feeling it and smelling it, you would start to like awakening a part of yourself that would connect you more with the water. So like providing people with this experience to you know, be by the ocean at least once in their lifetime. I think that would also help in connecting and creating this bond with this environment, which in turn probably, maybe hopefully could start awakening your like, sense of awareness and, and responsibility of what's going on and what's happening, you know, at a global scale with the ocean and the use of the resources and pollution and, and climate change. And that may in turn influence your decisions and your behaviours and your support for certain, you know, politicians or management or things like that on decisions at a higher level.

(33:07):
Yeah. And that makes sense. If you, if you have that stronger connection to the ocean, wherever you live, you're gonna care more about it, right? Yeah. And that's actually why I'm, I'm very excited to actually be here in Newfoundland. You know, it's one thing to learn about it, but it's another thing to, to be here and talk to the people and to experience the ocean for myself and, and hopefully to find my connection.

(33:25):
There's always a connection. You just need to awaken the connection in you. But then how we create a connection, that's the big question. It's like, how do we make people care? What awakens in us this connection like for you, right? Like, because you, you thought that you never, you didn't have a connection to the sea, but you have one, you just don't know that yet. So how do we see our connection? And, and like, it's really awakening. It's like, how do we open up this channel that will connect us to the sea because it's there, we just, some people are not aware of it.

(33:58):
So Monica, if someone is listening and they want to find that awakening, they want to find their connection to the ocean, but they can't get here, how can they find that connection where they live?

(34:07):
Well, if they look around where they are right now, they'll see the connection. The ocean is responsible for the life of this planet. So there is connection everywhere. It doesn't matter where you are, we are connected to the sea. It's hard to put that in a simple way because it's everything, it's everywhere. We are connected all the time with the air we are breathing, it's all connected, the climate, the rain, the sun, you know, the wind, the food, everything. It's connected to the ocean. So being aware of those connections that the planet is all connected and our lives are part of it, and everything is connected, I think that's the first step.

(34:48):
To finish this season. I wanna briefly explore what a possible transformation of governance and small-scale fisheries could include. The last six episodes have all touched on important elements to consider. So I thought I would highlight three themes that I noticed coming up again and again in my conversations that could possibly help with this transition. They were the importance of trust, bringing more people into the conversation and finding new creative ways to talk about the issues. Monica Engel talked about trust.

(35:15):
But I just wanna go back to the to the governments, the governance and the mismanagement. And another important thing is the lack of trust. So when the people don't have trust on the decision makers, and that could be because of one specific event or like a series of event. It could be from something from the past or something that's recent, but if it, if they don't have this trust and credibility on the decision making and then to get that back and to get people engaging in the conversation and, and just like accepting things that are happening or even taking responsibilities harder because you, you, there's this gap between, between those who are here and working and then who are making the decisions and managing the water. Right.

(35:58):
When I chatted about the weather with Joel Finnis in episode four, he mentioned it too. Yeah. And it sounds like just generally having that, that trust in experts is a valuable thing in this case.

(36:08):
I mean, you know, dismissing the forecaster and making fun of meteorologists is, is basically a global occupation, right? I mean, we all have heard all the jokes about, you know, and I wish I had a job where I got paid to be wrong half the time. Kind of, kind of comments, you know, you hear those a lot and it's easy to internalize them, but when you actually take a look at how people relate to the forecast, they're not nearly so glib or cavalier or dismissive. But you talked about trust, and I think that's an important aspect here, right? Trust ultimately comes from relationship building, right? If you have a relationship with somebody, you trust them more. And we've seen that again and again with things like how people respond to their local news anchors versus say just a news article that they might read in a national paper or something. Your local people are the ones that you have a relationship with. And as a result that maybe you, you trust a little bit more and listen to a little bit more. And perhaps that's been a problem of climate science for a long time, and that you don't necessarily have a relationship with the climate scientists in the same way that you've got a relationship to your beloved television. Meteorologist

(37:18):
Jan Negrijn not only talked about trust, but he also touched on another theme that I kept hearing, which is about giving fish harvesters a voice in this conversation. At this point in the interview, he was telling me about his television show from the nineties called Twine Loft, but he had another name for it.

(37:32):
I call it the Wayne's World of Fishing, right? . It's pretty much what it was. We had a cameraman, a producer, and myself, and, you know, we couldn't move the camera because we had to edit the footage in the day. And so whatever we had, we had, but it was very, it was very good, it was very successful. It was called the Twine Loft. It was on NTV and it used to air on a Sunday and it was basically marine related topics. I mean, everything from going to the Coast Guard and having the search and rescue explained, or a fisherman building a crab pod and showing you how it was built. We did seals, we did macro, we did chart work, we did knots and sp places, you name it. It was all over the place, but it was very low-key, very low-tech, but it seemed like people really took to it.

(38:33):
And I used to get four or 500 letters a year from people just saying, you know, that they were watching it and they really enjoyed it. But the thing that amazed me was the power of the media. Well, you know, Jan Negrijn isn't a very common name in Newfoundland. So you know, when, when I started with this with this TV show, it seemed like there were a lot of people watching it. And which surprised me because it was so low-tech. And after that, wherever I went to Newfoundland, whenever I went out on the dock somewhere, somebody would recognize me. And it was instant credibility. I mean, because I was on tv, I was, you know, I was credible and I was accepted, and it was wonderful for the work I was doing because I had access to fishermen's groups and so on.

(39:23):
And, you know, with the thought that I was acceptable to the fishermen, which was fine, which was great. It opened up a lot of doors for me. And for years after we went off the air, the people were still, you know, every once in a while, not, not a lot, but every once in a while, somebody, you'd be in the Avalon Mall or someplace and somebody come up and say, are you the guy that used to be on the Twine loft? And I once was crossing the road, and a car pulled up full of teenagers and they rolled down the window and, out pumped the fists twine loft rules. They yelled. So , I guess they were watching it.

(40:01):
You know, with this show, it, it gave you credibility and that gave you trust as well. Why is trust important when you are, you're trying to reach people, let's say, fish harvesters and trying to get information across, trying, trying to talk about conservation. Is trust an important thing when you're trying to have those conversations?

(40:20):
Yes, indeed. I mean, I think it's just about everything when you're starting off. Because, you know, history of fish harvesting has not always been a pretty one. And, and there have been a lot of situations where trust is being broken. And it's very difficult to talk about conservation sometimes because to great many fishermen conservation is synonymous with exclusion. And as much as you wanted to say that it's not going to happen, most fishermen can tell you stories of where they were told that before, but it actually did happen. And so I think that in any initiative that wants to grow conservation, the very first thing you have to start off is you, you have to establish trust. You have to actually do what you say you're going to do and not do what you're say you're not going to do.

(41:21):
So it's a process that takes time. I think that it's one of these things that you can't rush. You have to build it slowly and gradually and starting, starting off small and then growing it slowly to be what you would hope the vision would be. But of course, when you're trying to do conservation, who better to talk to about conservation than fish harvesters? Because they've spent their whole life on the, on the ocean, and their success is been dependent on observation and deduction. If they get it wrong, they don't make any money. So they observe and they figure out what's happening and what they need to do to, to get a good catch. So on. And for years that knowledge, that deep knowledge has been ignored. And some years ago I had the opportunity to work with a group of fishermen to train them for what was called a sentinel fisheries, where the with the fish harvesters would collect data after the moratorium would collect scientific data to see kind of like a, to keep an eye on the stalks to see when they were rebuilding or if they were rebuilding or what was happening to them.

(42:43):
And it was a six week program. And what I found was that as the fish harvesters learned about the science, started working with the scientists, had that trust, the scientists understood more of what the fishermen were faced with, and the fish harvesters understood what the constraints and the problems and the challenges that the scientists had. And I think there was a mutual respect that was developed. And at the end of the program, the fish harvesters were really enthused about doing the, doing the program and and collecting the data and, and to listen to them sit around over coffee. You'd think you were sitting in a DFO office somewhere where the scientists were discussing stocks.

(43:33):
Jan's comment about the power of the media reinforces the idea that this transition needs new and different ways of connecting with people. When I was talking with Rachael Cadman about her visioning project in episode five, she echoed this.

(43:45):
After we created that vision, I had an Enoch artist Jessica Winters create some art based on the vision. And so that is in my thesis, and it'll come out in some of the work that we do, as well as an alternative way of kind of communicating about what that future might look like. And she did so really beautiful illustrations of those four high-level goals and then synthesizing them into, into a final vision. And that was really nice to have that sort of storytelling aspect that we had of the workshop and then that arts-based method as well. And that was really cool for kind of shaking up people's brains and creativity and allowing them to, to think about that future in different ways and, and it made it much more kind of exciting and real for people.

(44:34):
Yeah. That's interesting to bring that creative side. Do you think we need to do more of that, more of the creativity in finding solutions?

(44:43):
For sure. I think like when we were talking about the future, it took a really long time for people to think beyond what is possible. And it was, you know, we spent a long time kind of trying to push people to think about that idealized future, and it was really hard. And it took those more like narrative and arts-based methods for people to start actually kind of dreaming a little bit more than they, than they had been. So I think it was, it was really nice and surprisingly kind of empowering for people.

(45:17):
Those are a few of my takeaways. This is by no means an exhaustive list, and I'm not the expert. So to end, I wanna go back to the beginning to my conversations with Ratana and Evan and give them the final word. I know you, it's, it's early on in the project, but what would success look like if this goes well?

(45:36):
I think success will look like that we've reached out to many, many different people and got them part of the conversation we're talking about, you know, we started with NGOs, but our next project is working with writers in the province to share stories and, and through their own specific medium about how they connect to the ocean and to marine conservation. We also wanna work with youth, we wanna work with teachers. There is of course, also opportunities to reach out to our colleagues in the university across Memorial's different campuses to come together about, you know, what are you doing with Ocean Connection and marine conservation? Can we learn more? Are there new questions to explore? I think that also identifying those networks, those relationships will be another success. I think at a bigger, bigger scale success will look like people having a new appreciation for marine conservation, people feeling like they've been reconnected to the place they love because of marine conservation, governments and organizations appreciating different approaches for marine conservation. I can tell you that while we're in year two, my whole perspective about what marine conservation is has been turned around and opened up, and that's gonna look like something different for other people. But I think we're onto something and success will look, will sound like people telling us about their renewed or new appreciation, their new awareness.

(47:15):
And, and part of your, your research in this project, Ratana is later on, I believe is getting it right. And so if we get this right, you know, what does that look like for you? What does success look like for you in sharing these conversations and, and reaching people?

(47:29):
It could be that in getting it right, we are gonna get many things wrong, but that is part of the journey. It's a bit bold to say that we are gonna get it right, but it's more provocative than anything else. I mean, if you get a few things in the good direction, that would be part of what getting it right means, you know, let, let's just think about who should be involved in supporting ocean conservation, promoting ocean sustainability. Is it really the job of who, whose job is it, right? So many people might feel like, well, government is the main agency responsible for this. They need to get it right. And to us it would be, well, you know, many other actors are part of this. So to get the ocean governance right, to get to achieve those common goals, if we can figure it out what they are, we need good process. So to have good process to get there would be part of that. Getting it right to let people know that everybody can contribute to that process and to achieving that goal would then be part of getting it right.

(48:41):
And Ratana, if you're listening, I want you to know that I found my connection to the ocean. It wasn't just from swimming in it, eating cod or catching capelin. When I think back on my time in Newfoundland, what I remember most is you and all the other wonderful people I had the privilege of learning from. This project is my connection to the ocean. The whole experience made me care about it and coastal communities more than I ever thought possible. So thank you. To end, I just have one final question for you, dear listener. So what's your connection to the ocean?

Connecting to the Ocean was produced by Michael Bartz with production assistance from Evan Andrews, Truman Osmond, Nantakorn Chayangkul, Vesna Kerezi, and Ratana Chuenpagdee. Special thanks to all the guests who gave generously of their time and expertise.

(49:51):
I'm trying to save the planet, oh will someone please save me?

(50:00):
In Over My Head's Connecting to the Ocean season was made possible with support from the Ocean Frontier Institute, module I and Memorial University.