Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program was produced with the support of Storyhive creativity, connected by Telus. For more information, please visit storyhive.com.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Well, I'm in over my head. No one told me, trying to keep my footprint small was harder than I thought it could be. Tryin’ to save the planet. Oh, will someone please save me. Tryin’ to save the planet, oh will someone please save me?
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Welcome to in over my head. I'm Michael Bartz. My guest today is Mandy Sandbach. Mandy is a mother partner and intuitive permaculturist her work with the nonprofit organization, Lethbridge sustainable living association, and a variety of community projects has her hands in the soil creating an inspiring seven generations, regenerative perennial food systems right here in Southern Alberta. Welcome to in over my head, Mandy, thanks so much for joining
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Us. Thanks for having me. Yeah,
Speaker 3 (00:58):
So I thought I'd bring you in as an expert on, on soil because I have my off-grid tiny house, right. And we're living on a farm and it's amazing and we love it, but it's not just about the house. It's also about the surrounding area and the land and how we use that to, to live. So today I want to talk about permaculture. So for folks who don't know, what is permaculture?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
This is one of those loaded questions where depending on who your teacher is and, and the, the, you know, sort of your experiences and community that, that changes. But in essence, permaculture was this sort of larger, broader paradigm brought to us by David Mollison in the seventies and the late said seventies, David Homegrin as well. And it centers around three principle ethics being taken care of people, taking care of the planet, taking care of future generations and kind of like the transition of that timing. And then there's a series of principles that we follow and, and really what we're doing is looking to nature for our cues. We're looking to see how she grows her forested systems and erosion systems and recognizing that there's an inherent intelligence and how she's been doing it for as long as she's been doing it.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
And so in permaculture design, we spend a lot of time really observing the natural world and taking those bits that we learn and putting it back into our human systems. So whether that's our food systems or our clothing systems or a community systems, or how we build we're following those principles and we're always mirroring any steps we take. The idea really is that we want to take a protracted approach instead of just jumping in and just doing things that might mock up that those natural ecosystems, but really taking a step back and, and considering thoughtfully mindfully, and then mirroring what we see in nature. So,
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Yeah, I, that a good example for me, like when we put the tiny house on the farm, the first spot we were at was beautiful, but it was far too shady. And so we weren't getting enough sunlight. So was like, Hey, we need to find a place that has more sunlight because when you're not just plugging into the grid, now you have to think about that. And then we thought about the wind. Okay. Now when you place, that has a windbreak. So we found a spot with a lot of trees, so really thinking about yeah. How designing the space around nature as well, because I feel like in, especially in residential areas, we just build for, for people and accessibility and roads and everything else, and we don't take nature into account. And do you feel like using permaculture is a good way to save the planet and help with climate change?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
I think using permaculture, or at least using that as a lens, a loose framework to kind of look outside of your eyes into what you're looking at becomes a real opportunity to be connected to something that's deeper that that has sort of you know, hundreds of thousands of years of history and an, and so it keeps us more in alignment with the elements and, and what's happening in nature, whether or not it saves the planet. I have, I would not venture to say that, but it really allows us to live more in tune with the way we used to and, and the ways we really need to move away from, I think about that in an urban setting what you were describing, the orientation of houses isn't considered in our developing and planning, just as one small example, if we just oriented our houses to a, you know, that south sort of facing area, it would offer us more option to capture some of that solar energy is just one small. If we followed water cycles within our developed areas a little bit better, we'd have to carry less of that wastewater away. So I see it as, as a useful tool for adjusting our human habitat like that.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
And do you see those, those changes taking place over maybe the coming decades? Hopefully. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
I think it's one of the things that needs to be done. One of the things that I noticed when I took my first permaculture design was that we had a couple of city developers taking the training. And that made sense for me because they're really designing the initial stages and framework for our cities. And so if they're informed with something deeper and in terms of, you know, rhythms and cycles of what the planet and the seasons bring a rate from the very basic foundation of that, then we have a really good chance of making more regenerative choices in, in how we create community. So I'd like to see a lot more of that, that happening, the people who are decision-making and creating that framework having this background and understanding
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Definitely. And I feel like the more we use renewable energy, if that's a thing that's on the horizon, if everyone's using solar panels like me, they're going to say, okay, where's the sun, we need to track this. We need to figure that out. So,
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's a reliance on technology sometimes in that there's simpler technologies that we can use that more sense costs, less money, use less resource in that. But if we don't broaden our horizons for what we teach, it's more about like, what am I looking at? How do I make sense of this in nature? And then reframe that in a, in an urban context for examples. So I see that being our best hope sort of moving forward is, is having everybody really tap into that, those natural rhythms and cycles and understanding hydrological cycles and sun cycles and animals cycles, and patterns, then we can make solid decisions. So,
Speaker 3 (06:29):
And you talked about some simpler technologies. What sort of things would you be talking about? Well,
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Just harvesting solar energy is what comes to mind. So not, I'm not talking necessarily about solar panels, but if the orientation of our houses was in a, you know, as another example in sort of the right format, if the, with that south facing sun, then we can build passive solar houses, for example, that are harvesting and holding onto that thermal energy radiating at slower over time, we use less resource in terms of heating and cooling systems in that way. And so all that really is, is just basic building techniques and strategies rather than having to rely on more technology, more components that we have to extract more resources for. So and then the other opportunity that, that offers you is just simple, proper orientation for your gardening, for where your growing systems are. And including, you know, passive solar greenhouses in that design. Whereas if you're oriented to the north, you can't do any of that. So not just, yeah, harvesting into batteries is typically what we think of as like renewable energy, renewable energy. It's holding water in a landscape through a series of swales and berms, for example, water harvesting techniques and your growing techniques. That's holding that resource in the land rather than having to have, you know, buckets and things with plastic things that we hold water. And those are basic easy technology. Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
And for someone who maybe just can't like, let me pull their house up wherever they want to go and live on a farm, what are some maybe small things people can do to, to start incorporating permaculture into their daily lives?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Oh, I love that. And it's not the answer people are typically looking for. One of the principles we follow is starting small, using slow solutions. And so we're always in such a hurry as human beings to just go in and enforce whatever we see needs to happen. And if we don't know ourselves in relation to those elements and to those natural spaces, we really can't make intelligent choices about it. So before you do anything in any way, even maybe before you purchase property, I would spend time on the land in permaculture, we offer the perspective that you should spend four seasons at a minimum, getting to know all of those things, the wind tunneling, where the water goes, how it flows, what animals are there, you know, who are the users of the property? You know, what kind of a bioregion are you dealing with?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Because if you're in Southern Alberta, you're in a semi-arid desert that offers something very different than being in Halifax. So take your time with it. Start to make those observations, get to know intimately what you're seeing and who you're seeing on the land. And then you can intelligently choose, you know, where your house is going to go, where it makes sense to put certain things. You know, you're not going to put your delicate annual garden in a wind tunnel situation, but you wouldn't know that if you didn't watch during the winter to see where there was snow piles up. So don't be in a hurry, take a step back, give yourself space to really observe and interact with that environment before you make any of those big decisions. And then the next piece of that really close to that would really just be started observing water, especially in Southern Alberta.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
We are in a semi arid desert. We only get about 260, 270 millimeters of rain in a year, which is not very much. So we want to hold that that is a precious resource. So start watching how the water is moving through the land, if any, is it only Overland rain? Is there a water table? There are there trees because trees are like hydrological pumps. If there isn't, maybe that's just strategy is you're going to need to get a bunch more trees planted to be moving that water. So start watching water. Don't be in a hurry, take a step back, really make those observations, have a notebook, right from the beginning and you know, sit out in your space.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
I love that. That's a great advice. And maybe for someone who doesn't live on a far, maybe they're in an apartment, like let's say, in Lethbridge, and how could they do better? How could they adapt some permaculture ideas into their urban life?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah. I would offer the same piece of advice as you move into a new environment. Really take the lay of the land, get to know the community, look for the people who are your people, whatever that means that share these these ideas, get to know, you know, especially in apartments, get to understand what the, the regular practices are of the land owners. There's only certain things that we can actually have any control over. And it really is just our mindset being the biggest one. So getting used to the filter of looking outside of your eyes, to identify where waste streams for example are happening, and I'm not just talking recycling our food scraps where are you buying your meat and your veggies from? Do you know the farmers? What are their practices? Are they local? How much driving is going into distributing that, that food?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
It could be as simple as looking for the people who are teaching about different gardening techniques and engaging in that community, learning a few more skills supporting your local food banks. We have an incredible service here at the interfaith food bank where they, they offer all kinds of teaching opportunities of canning and jamming and pickling and all of these wonderful, you know, sort of more sustainable techniques. Yeah, I think, you know, that observation phase can't be, can't be overstated in it because it really is. It's what allows you to tap into that community and start to be able to, okay, where, where can I affect change? That makes sense and feels right. You know, we all, don't just start, you know, putting down our own food. That's a, that's a later stage, but being willing to soften and be curious about what you think you know about the environment and climate. I think it starts there. If you, aren't willing to just take a step back, take a breath, look at your own choices, then, then there's nowhere to go in that. So,
Speaker 3 (12:17):
And I feel like that really helps with that feeling in over your head, feeling overwhelmed at, to know that there are those resources in our community that you can access and be a part of. And I checked out your website and there's so much going on there. What was the website again for
Speaker 1 (12:31):
The lethbridgesustainableliving.org? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah. So I would encourage people to definitely check that out if they want to learn more about permaculture and the other things you have going on, because we could talk for hours about just that one topic. One thing I also wanted to touch on was the fruit rescue program that you do. Tell me more about that.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Oh, the fruit rescue program is incredible. So when we start having conversations about local food security, you know, the first place we can start is really looking around us and seeing what we already have in abundance that isn't being utilized. So originally the fruit rescue program was born out of that, recognizing we had thousands of fruit trees and shrubs in the city that were going to waste. So the original sort of organizers of this started reaching out to private citizens who have these trees. Weren't able to get to the trees and pick them sometimes because of age and access. And, and busy-ness lots of our seniors have beautiful, beautiful fruit trees that were going to waste. And so we're a assert, we're not a service. What we are is a group of volunteers and we're matching private landowners with our group of picking volunteers.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
And so we're utilizing and, and harvesting thousands of pounds of fruit every season. The last couple of years, we've purchased a commercial commercial juice press, which has allowed us to actually juice and press directly on site pasteurize the juice, and then distribute it from there. And so we're not talking about the public lands. I do want to make that distinction because the city of Lethbridge has an incredible map that shows you where these trees are. We're working with private land owners and trying to match with, to people who are looking for some of that produce. And one of the things that, that has really been born out of it, that's incredible is you know, for example, some of our seniors will come to us and say, could you bring me a bag of apples? I love making pies, and, but I can't get out and get picking. And so that's what, what we will do is we will connect with people and do that as well. So if you're interested in picking fruit or having fruit for jams, or you know, pies, or just putting food down, you can connect with us, get on our volunteer lists, come out with the series of picking events that we do have COVID has stifled a tad bit. But we just have adjusted in terms of how many people are at a pic and things like that. So
Speaker 3 (14:43):
And I have to say, I actually signed up last year to help out. And it was just such a fun experience. It was so rewarding to meet the owners of the, and to, and we had cherries, we picked and we made jam mainly we did a apple picking, we made juice and just the community involvement and knowing that that food that potentially would go to waste is now being used for a good purpose. It's just an amazing program.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah. And we get a lot of feedback from our landowners as well. They're really, really happy that they don't have to pick up the rotting fruit, which causes all kinds of other animal issues upstream. But to have the community coming into your backyard in whatever ways you're able to connect in that way is really it's precious. It really is great. It's a great part of it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
And it's that, that definitely that community development as well, which is a, a great part, zero waste. You want to talk about that?
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Yeah. It's one of our sort of unofficial initiatives. We just, we keep coming into conversations around how we can individually make a difference. And oftentimes it starts with our waste and just identifying how much waste we're producing and where it's coming from. Like, for example, doing a garbage audit, that's a really great way to sort of start collect your garbage for a week or two, and then start fishing through it, to see where the waste is coming from. And so our zero waste initiative really the way you see that expressed in community has been in a series of knowledge sharing and, and online in the last little while, but also in-person skill sharing, knowledge share events. So we had a beautiful woman from another nonprofit called days for girls. And she came out and did a workshop for us and taught us how to make our own reusable menstrual pads on the sewing machines. We were meeting monthly prior to COVID making reasonable paper products, like paper towels and tissues and things like that. Just kind of teaching people hands-on ways to just practically start reducing some of your ways. So it morphs and changes depending on who's involved and, and what somebody wants to offer.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
And, and when you see people learning about zero waste and, and getting those hands on skills, you see a change in people. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
There's definitely an empowerment, just like a simple shift of, oh, I could just make my own reasonable paper towels out of sheets. It, they take that into their life and inevitably it passes on to the kiddos and then a set of grandparents. I've had people in, in some of these gatherings make a set for grandma and grandpa and take it to them. And then all of a sudden it's this, this whole thing. And so they're passing that information along and they feel really great in doing that. And it's not that they're difficult skills. They're just reforming, okay. If I'm not buying paper for an example you know, what else would I use? And so, yeah, it's been good.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
Yeah. And I feel like it's those, those small incremental steps, right. That people maybe just don't think about, oh yeah. Is there an alternative to this or that? And, and for me, I find that in my life that as soon as I learn about something, then that builds onto something else.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Yeah. Very much so, very much so. So even doing a garbage audit, the two things that come to mind immediately and having done it as recognizing how much food waste goes, the garbage, but also paper waste. And so those are two hands on things really simply that we can change in our life. You can just identifying who's composting and can I drop a bucket off every week? Can you work collaboratively? Not everybody's going to have a compost system, ideally we all would. But that's not the reality. And so in your community, can you reach out and, and have, you know, offer that resource to somebody else to turn that into nutrient dense soil. And then the paper piece of it, that's a really easy solve. If we look at reusable products that way, and we don't have to buy them, that's the other thing that zero waste left has really pushed as we take donations of sheets, for example. And those can be turned into all kinds of different products that we use. And they're, they're a waste stream that would go into the dump when we're done with them, maybe rags for your garage. But if we can convert them into something else, it gets people thinking in that mindset of looking around, how else can I reduce my waste? Because we're not all going to produce one jars worth of waste. That's not reasonable. I have kids teenagers specifically. So there's way too many straws in my life for that to be realistic,
Speaker 3 (18:53):
For sure. Yeah. And I feel like that again, it can be that overwhelming feeling of like, when you see the Instagram posts and the things that people are living this way, and, but I'm making so much waste, you know, how is that possible? But I think, yeah, reframing that and saying, okay, that's not maybe realistic, but here are some realistic things we can do. And they are.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's just a journey. We're all on a journey. And I think the sustainable living association, one of the things we, we really feel as important is accessibility and practicality, and that we're all on this journey at a different place in time. And we can all have different capabilities and resources. So less about judgment about your one jars worth of waste and more about how are you seeing your world and where are you putting that into play that's meaningful for you? That makes sense for you that doesn't stress you out, right?
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Yeah. Well, that's some great information so we can get involved with permaculture. We can get involved with the fruit rescue program for sure. And I would encourage people to check out the website, let through sustainable living.org.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yes, absolutely. Thank you. Thanks so
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Much for coming on the show, Mandy, and thank you listeners. You are empowered, so let's go out and save the planet. So that was my conversation with Mandy. I think one of my favorite things that she talked about was community development, whether it's permanent culture or any other aspect, having community is a great way for us to save the planet. You can't do it alone. So get involved wherever you are. That's all for me. I'm Michael Bartz. Here's the feeling a little less in over our heads when it comes to saving the planet.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
In over over my head was produced and hosted by Michael Bartz. Sound engineering by Rodrigo Henriquez. Original music by Gabriel Thaine special, thanks to Lisa Pruden and Jessica Gibson.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
This program was produced with a support of Telus.