(00:01):
Well I'm in over my head. No one told me trying to keep my footprint small was harder than I thought it could be. I'm in over my head. What do I really need? Trying to save the planet over someone, please save me trying to save the planet over someone. Please save me.

Michael (00:25):
Welcome to over my head. I'm Michael Bartz. My guest today is Dr. Mark Zacharias. Dr. Zacharias is a special advisor with clean energy Canada with interest in climate policy, particularly in the field of clean energy for 25 years, Mark worked for the British Columbia public service where his most recent appointment was this deputy minister of environment and climate change strategy. Dr. Zacharia also holds adjunct faculty appointments at the University of British Columbia University of Victoria and Simon Fraser University. Welcome to over my head, Dr. Zacharias.

Mark (00:55):
Well, thank you very much for having me.

Michael (00:57):
So in talking with my past guest about transportation, a consistent message I got was where we get our energy from dictates how effective sustainable transportation is. So clearly the, the decarbonization of electricity grid is essential and renewable energy is part of this conversation. So this includes solar wind hydro among others. Since our tiny home is powered by solar, I've experienced firsthand the benefits of this amazing technology. And, and I'm excited to talk about renewables with you today. So to start currently, how much of Canada's electricity is created by renewable sources?

Mark (01:28):
We split it up into two things. One is renewable versus non emitting. So if you look at non emitting, meaning not fossil fuels, about 83% of Canada's electricity is produced by hydro nuclear, wind, solar and other technologies. And of that about 66 to 67% is actually from renewables, which we would define as hydroelectric, wind, and solar, and some biomass and a few other sort of smaller technologies in there.

Michael (01:56):
Well, that's probably higher than I think people would expect when they think about renewable energy. Why would that be the case?

Mark (02:02):
Well, most of it is because of hydro. So if you look at Canada's electricity grid, it is still 60% hydroelectric. And most of these facilities with the exception of site C and muskrat falls, and, you know, they've been around for decades and that has been the backbone of Canada's electricity grid. And it allows Canada to produce a lot of low carbon products that we export overseas. And if you look get our wood products, if you look at our steel, our cement, even some of our agricultural products, if you look at the copper, we export, we have a greenhouse gas advantage when we sell these products into different markets.

Michael (02:39):
Okay. And so there's a lot of hydro electricity. Is there a push for the wind and solar and other electricity?

Mark (02:48):
Yeah. Well, if you look at Canada and Canada has a net zero commitment by 2050, which meaning that the economy will be carbon neutral in 28 years. And it's an ambitious goal, but it's one that Canada, along with another 136 nations all share. And at the recent Glasgow climate conference in November, that's when all of the nations came forward and said, yeah, 137 of us will be net zero. It means a massive scaling up of our electricity production. And right now, so we're 83%, zero emmting, in electricity right now that needs to go to a hundred percent ideally by 2035. And that's a federal commitment to do so, which is great. And then it needs to double on top of that. So it's an enormous amount of new power that's gonna be required. And just to put that into perspective, doubling our electricity would mean 113 new sites, C as an example, or 12 new Bryce power generating stations in Ontario.

(03:44):
So it's an enormous undertaking. Now, the key here is going to be which technologies are going to be the ones that are gonna kinda win the race or win the battle. And right now, if you look globally wind and solar costs solar costs have dropped 82%, since 2010. Onshore wind costs have dropped 40% since 2010. So what we're seeing now is we're actually seeing solar power and wind power coming in around 4 cents kilowat hour in Alberta. Now, just to put that in perspective for your average consumer. So in Alberta, for example, your residential electricity bills about 16 cents per or kilowat hour. So, you know, very, very reasonable what we're also seeing across the world right now. And it'll start moving its way into Canada. We're seeing other countries with good wind and solar resources getting electricity bids around 1 cents a kilowat hour. So just to put that in perspective for hydro nuclear hydro power right now is around eight to 9 cents per kilo hour. Nuclear is about double that. So if you're looking at which technologies are most likely to kinda win that future race, wind, and solar are, are far far ahead.

Michael (04:51):
Based on what I've been reading. It also depends on where it's implemented in the country. Like you mentioned in Alberta, there's lots of sun, so probably would matter depending on geography, what sort of renewable energy or implementing, right?

Mark (05:02):
Absolutely. You know, Alberta and Saskatchewan are among the best jurisdictions in north America for wind and solar. And most people don't know that. Particularly you look at Alberta and, you know, it's wind resource is unparalleled. Saskatchewan has the same ability to produce solar power as Florida. And so, you know, the public as they learn about these things are gonna realize that, yeah, that is a future for Canada in terms of how we produce electricity,

Michael (05:27):
Thinking about the different forms of renewable electricity. I dunno if it's quite comparing apples to apples, but I read that electric generation and consumption has to be balanced at all times. Fossil fuels are fully dispatchable, meaning that they can provide electricity when it's needed most. And some forms of renewable electricity are non dispatchable, mean they can't be drawn on at any given time. Is this a consideration when you're ramping up renewables?

Mark (05:51):
Absolutely. And in fact, you know, even two to three years ago, it was always the, the mantra was that it was required that you would need some sort of fossil fuel backup it's called base load power to be able to supplant renewables as they get stood up. Mainly because some days, you know, the sun doesn't shine, the wind doesn't blow. And even hydroelectric, if you have periods of drought or winter, low flows, you know, sometimes you just can't produce the electricity that you want to. That was a couple years ago, what's transpired now. And it's been really interesting seeing what's happening across the world is what's called grid scale storage is becoming reality. So these are either large batteries in the traditional lithium ion battery sense. You can store renewable energy using compressed dairy. You can store using flywheel. And a lot of people now are starting to look at actually creating hydrogen.

(06:41):
So you use the surface electricity generated during the day or the evening. If you have wind and you use that electricity to actually split water through electrolysis and you actually create what's called green hydrogen. And then when you actually need the energy, you can run that hydrogen back through an electrolizer in a fuel cell and turn it back into electricity. So Los Angeles has a very big project of doing just this. So what they wanna do is they want to take green hydrogen and they they'll store it and when they need it, and it has two uses one, you can turn it back into electricity, but you can also use it to put into the natural gas grid and help decarbonize your national gas grid. So what we're seeing now this year in 2022, we're going to see the first grid scale batteries above a gigawatt of storage. That's about equivalent to the capacity of site C. So it's real. And so the whole notion that we are going to need natural gas, which are called peaker plants into the future, you know, it'll be for the next little while, but the technology does exist to store renewable power at a grid scale level.

Michael (07:42):
Let's say we're including that in the equation. Kilowat for kilowat like, is there a more effective form of renewable energy versus another one? Or are they all about the same?

Mark (07:54):
It really depends on your geography, your transmission grid and what other types of power you're actually supplementing. For example, wind is great in Southern Alberta solar, it looks to be having a good potential future in Saskatchewan. You know, as you get to BC, some of those resources have a less ability to be stood up, just geographically. And the fact we just don't have great solar resources and parts of a Columbia. So it really depends kind of where you are. And also too, it just depends, you know, what your base load is around, just exactly how much hydro do you have and how much power do you need into the future at what times and what places.

Michael (08:33):
There's also the idea of, of sharing power between provinces. Is that a consideration as well?

Mark (08:40):
Yeah, this really part of scaling up to double our power capacity as part of that, it's not simply a generation problem. It's also a transmission problem. So we need to be able to move electricity east and west. And we already move electricity east and west to a small extent, but more in Canada, we move power north the south. So we sell about 8.6% of our electricity to the US. And so there's been some work happening over the last couple of years where governments utilities are coming together to start figuring out how do we build what are called interties between provinces and there's some work going on between Manitoba and Saskatchewan. Some of the most innovative and furthest to long work in Canada right now is in the Atlantic provinces, trying to figure out how do we get power from Labrador and move it over to Nova Scotia and new Brunswick, which are still using coal to generate electricity. You'll see, particularly this federal government is very keen on having questions around enterprise and, and we'll see what that looks like over the next year or two.

Michael (09:38):
And you, are you hopeful that the changes will be made in that direction?

Mark (09:42):
I think so. So the federal government, the new federal government, they've got a, a promise of what's called a clean electricity standard. And what that will mean by 2035 is a hundred percent of the electricity generated in Canada will have to, to be non emitting. And so what that's going to mean is that's gonna be shutting down the remaining coal fired power plants and starting to transition away from natural gas fired power plants, unless you capture the carbon and store it somehow that it's also going to mean moving power around the country more efficiently. So yes, all that is gonna come in and hopefully with the next decade, we're gonna see Canada with a clean electricity grid that moves power efficiently between provinces.

Michael (10:20):
So some people will talk about the negative side effects of renewable energy, such as wind turbines, affecting birds or massive farms of black solar modules absorbing more heat than a bare earth or hydro dams affecting river flows, et cetera. Are these valve concerns when we're looking at ramping up renewable?

Mark (10:37):
Oh, absolutely. So, I mean, first and foremost, we need to be a culture of efficiency. The less electricity we use in our personal lives, in our buildings, our industry in our transportation, the less we're gonna have to scale up. So that's the easiest way to avoid any negative externalities on the landscape or people is to basically look at efficiency measures. But after that, when you look at each of the technologies, each of them have their own kind of pluses and minuses in terms of kind of footprints and environmental impacts. Nuclear has a very small habitat land-based footprint, but they have a waste management problem. You just noted that hydroelectric reservoirs can flood valleys. They can also kind of release metals that work their through food chains into indigenous populations. If you look at wind and solar, you not only have a lot of land, that's gonna be necessary to use these instead of stand them up.

(11:27):
You also have to have proper recycling programs for the end of life when these, when they need to be kind of taken down. And there's a lot of kind of thinking around how best to do that. So if you look at, for example, a wind farm to produce around one megawat of power in Saskatchewan, and it requires about 35 hectares or 87 acres. So, you know, it's a lot of area, but thinking about that, particularly if it's a large turbine, they like to have up to 40 acres just by themselves. So you can still have activities, whether it's farming or other land activities happening around it. Solar farms are much smaller, concentrated into smaller areas. Megawat solar farm in Saskatchewan is about four hectares, so much smaller, but again, you know, you don't have the ability to have different land uses around it. So these are all issues that are gonna have to be sorted out. The other aspect of all of this is as the technology improves and becomes more efficient, the kind of footprint, both on the habitat and on the impacts to people in wildlife and on the recycling side, at some point they should be lessened over the next couple of years and decades.

Michael (12:32):
So is there an economic a case for renewable energy?

Mark (12:36):
Yes. So if we look at renewable costs of production right now, they are around 4 cents kilowatt hour in Alberta, which is leading Canada in terms of standing up renewables at low cost. I think Saskatchewan would be a comparative jurisdiction. Those are about half the cost of two traditional hydroelectric power and about a quarter of the cost of nuclear power. So quite cost-effective in terms of these technologies around providing power. The other economic case around this is that as the world moves to a net-zero future, you're gonna see countries in Europe and the US and Japan. They're gonna look at the, a carbon content of their imports. So for things like aluminum and steel and cement and forest products and agriculture products and vehicle parts, those are only gonna be allowed into places like the European union, if they meet some sort of carbon intensity standard.

(13:29):
So there is a real economic case for Canada to be able to have not only clean cheap power, but also use it to power our industries, to help our exports, which again, overall helps the economy as a whole. So there is a very large economic case for having not only lots of power but having it non-emitting and also have it reasonably priced. Canada's pretty fortunate. We have the lowest residential electricity rates in the G seven. And, you know, as I said, we've exported about 8.6% of our power already into the US. We've talked a little bit about using clean cheap power to help our export competitiveness, but there's also another aspect of this is actually exporting the power itself. So we may be in a situation where we could export more power into the us, Joe Biden's administration had a goal to switch their electricity grid to a hundred percent non-emitting by 2035.

(14:23):
That's pretty ambitious given they're only 37% of the way there now. And they have a lot of coal to get through. And his package of stimulus is stuck in the Senate right now. So that's one opportunity. The other opportunity is there's a way to clean renewable electricity and export it through hydrogen. We can create green hydrogen from water that can be turned into ammonia or methanol, and that can be exported to countries in lieu of natural gas. So replaces natural gas. Oman, Saudi Arabia and Western Australia are all using solar and wind to basically create green hydrogen. So carbon-free hydrogen and export that into Asia. So it's an opportunity for Canada. And there are a number of companies right now in Canada, looking at how to export clean hydrogen. So just another example of how up our electricity grid can also help our competitiveness and our economy.

Michael (15:15):
If we were to go to a hundred percent renewables, like are people going to see an increase in their utility bills like day to day?

Mark (15:23):
That's a very good question. And the international energy agency looked at this last year. And what they found out is that between 2020, in 2050, for those nations or jurisdictions that have strong climate policies, your average resident would see lower utility bills. And that's because of, as you scale up renewable and zero-emission electricity, it is actually cheaper than a lot of the power developed by fossil fuels right now. So while your average Canadian, may your electricity bill increase somewhat, that's gonna be offset by less gas for your car. Cuz you'll have an electric car. You won't be buying natural gas to heat your home. So overall we should see utility bills decline across Canada as we progress through the next couple of decades. But again, that's, if we plan now when we plan properly.

Michael (16:12):
And, and do you see those plans happening?

Mark (16:14):
I think the writing is on the wall now and we're starting to see governments, utilities look forward and they're realizing that, yeah, we need to figure out now how we scale up our clean power generation and those conversations are starting to happen at all levels and, and in various provinces right now. So hopefully they'll happen quickly. We don't want Canada to see what's happened in Europe, around, you know, reliance on natural gas and only two sources. And one source from Norway had production problems and transmission problems, which meant that Europe, this winter has been reliant on Russian gas meddling so we wanna make sure that Canada doesn't have that situation and we can do that. We can do it very, very efficiently. And we can plan now such that this clean energy transition is very orderly.

Michael (17:01):
Some people who perhaps support the fossil fuel industry or, or just the energy industry in general talk about jobs. My thinking is wouldn't we create even more jobs with renewable energy and, and ramping that up.

Mark (17:14):
Yeah. So there's, there are two sides to that question is running a natural gas production facility employs quite a few people and it employs more people than a solar farm or a wind farm. That's only half the question. The longer-term question is where are our exports going from Canada? So if you look at the international energy agency, what they've, and they've concluded that if every country that brought their climate ambition to the classical conference does what they say they're going to do. We're gonna see global oil production peak just around 2030 or shortly thereafter, and then declined by about 10% per decade thereafter. So given that Canada's number one export by value is crude oil. We're gonna have to start thinking about what fills that hole in the Canadian economy. As we transition away from exporting fossil fuels, natural gas is a bit better story, but again, the IEA has said global production to is gonna peak around 2035 and then be pretty steady right out to 2050.

(18:13):
So again, these are industries that aren't gonna be growing after 2040. And so we need to start thinking about two things. One is how do we fill that kind of economic gap? That's going to be left when these things start to sunset. And also two is we have a workforce it's dependent on oil and gas sector. Now, one of the great things about renewables and particularly where they're going to be located and where Canada is best situated for them, particularly in Alberta and Saskatchewan is we have a workforce there currently working in the oil and gas sector that has transferable skills that could move over to the clean economy sector. And we here at Clean Energy Canada. We've done some modelling last year around clean energy jobs. And just looking at Alberta alone, we're looking at a 164% increase in clean energy jobs in Alberta between 2020 and 2030. So there is an opportunity here again if we plan now and we work now for an effective and fair transition into a clean economy, that slowly looks at our oil and gas industries over time and how we kind of move those, make them cleaner while they're still producing. And while they're still making money for Canada, and eventually when the world no longer needs fossil fuels we have a renewable future to transition to.

Michael (19:27):
And so energy is always a bit political to Canadians, generally support a move to renewable energy?

Mark (19:35):
Yes, we and others have done repeated polling across Canada and, you know, Canadians get it. They realize that the world is going to be moving to net-zero and low carbon. They don't want Canada to be left behind. They want their kids in grandkids to continue to have good and paying jobs. So Canadians understand that there is a shift that's going to be required into a clean economy. Canadians are also very aware of our competitiveness in that in order for Canada to be competitive on a global stage, we are gonna have to produce clean goods at a low price. We've just released some polling over the last week. That once again shows, that Canadians from all walks of life from all provinces really are looking forward to a clean energy future. And want Canada to move forward now.

Michael (20:19):
How much of an impact does moving to a hundred percent clean energy have on climate change?

Mark (20:26):
The international energy agency last year concluded that the single most important thing that countries can do for climate change is to move their electricity grids to a hundred percent non-emitting. So right now, if you look at all of the global carbon emissions, 30% of it right now comes from one thing, and that is the combustion of coal to produce electricity. So it's the single most important thing we can do is to actually clean up our electricity grids. So that's gonna be the number one thing that most countries will be looking at over the next couple of decades. Canada is in a great situation because we're 83% non-emitting right now. So it's not a huge step for us to switch to a hundred percent by 2035. But certainly, we need to do it to be a leader and show leadership for other countries as well.

Michael (21:14):
So if you could imagine what the world would look like in 2050, do you see any other forms of renewable energy being implemented that we don't currently rely on?

Mark (21:23):
I think there are a few out there that aren't necessarily renewable. Some are and some aren't, but certainly are in consideration fusion. Energy is an interesting one. And you know, the old saying is that fusion energy is always 30 years away from being real. And what we're seeing now is that there's an opportunity potentially for fusion to scale up to a commercial opportunity. And Canada has a number of companies that are working in the fusion space, a second renewable technology that is coming, and really hasn't been widely applied in Canada, but has elsewhere in Iceland is geothermal. I mean, we are a very large country with a lot of geography and we have an opportunity to be able to look at how do we find areas of heat in our life and, and use that to create electricity. A third one is the oceans.

(22:13):
So not only generating power from offshore wind, but also looking at generation power from tides and currents, and also there's work underway looking at how do you actually use the temperature gradient in the ocean a much like a heat pump does in your house. You, you have warm waters in the top and cold waters in the deep, and there's a very large potential there. You know, how do you use that to generate power? So I think there's going to be a few technologies that appear over the next couple of decades and they may not appear and be used in Canada, but certainly around the world. I think it's gonna be interesting to watch.

Michael (22:47):
So lastly, this show is about empowering citizens to take action when it comes to the climate crisis, in your opinion, what can people do today to ensure that we reach our goal of one hundred percent clean electricity?

Mark (22:58):
A couple of things people can do. You know, one is on your personal lifestyle level when your car or truck needs replacement, have a look at a battery or a fuel cell vehicle. We expect to see zero-emission vehicles, price parody with internal combustion vehicles, probably in the next three or four years. So that's gonna be an opportunity for people. The second is if you have a home is look at retrofits, whether it's windows or insulation or swapping out a natural gas furnace for a heat pump, all of these small things add up. If everybody does it, we always encourage people. Look at the federal and provincial and local government incentives around doing this because not only is it good for the climate could actually save you money on your utility bills. The third thing too is when you're buying things, have a look at where they're made.

(23:44):
If they're made in Canada, it's most likely there, they're going to be made with low carbon electricity and have a smaller carbon footprint. And also to is when you cast your vote, think about whether you're casting your vote for climate. Approach your candidates and ask them what's your stance on climate change. And people who think right and left has different perspectives on climate. But if you look around the world, some of the most progressive governments on climate are all over the political spectrum right now. So these are the small things you can do, but if we all do them, they add up.

Michael (24:15):
And so when you talk about how people can take personal action, you mentioned getting an electric car or renovating your house and possible subsidies because I think the cost is obviously a factor. What sort of subsidies are there that people can get for those improvements?

Mark (24:31):
There's a number out there right now. For example, if you were to go buy, a new electric vehicle, the federal government can provide up to $5,000 against the purchase price. And that's applied at the point of sale. And there are seven provinces right now that also have provincial incentives for zero-emission vehicles, again at the point of sale. And they all differ depending on the province and where you live. So those are one thing you can look at the federal government in their kinda recent election platform and mandate letters. They've announced a new $4 billion fund for home retrofits to be able to help with the zero carbon and transition. And the details are just coming out on that. But I would encourage your listeners to just keep checking back on the federal government website and see whether that is something that they might be able to use to kind of help them lower their urban footprint in their personal lives and also to a lot of local governments. And again, depends on which city you live in and in which province they'll often have incentives and just check their website occasionally for heat pumps or windows, or even an energy audit, right? Even if you can save 50 or a hundred dollars on that, it goes a long way. And so we always encourage people, just keep your pulse on these and sometimes they'll appear and, you know, take advantage of them cuz it can save you money.

Michael (25:46):
Well, that's, that's very helpful. That's a realistic thing to look at. So appreciate you sharing that information. I think you've answered all my questions. So thanks so much for your time, Mark.

Mark (25:54):
Great. Thank you very much for having me.

Michael (25:57):
Well, that was my talk with Dr. Zacharias. We covered a lot of information in a short period of time, but I think my favourite thing was how we talked about using hydrogen to store power, that’s something I just never thought of and I found super interesting. Oh, and one more thing. You may listen to the show on a podcast player, which is great, but don't forget to check out www.inovermyheadpodcast.com. The show is there, but there are also links to other shows I've been on and pictures of the tiny house. So, something worth checking out. Well, that's all for me. I'm Michael Bartz. Here's feeling a little less in over our heads when it comes to saving the planet, we'll see you again soon. In Over My head my head was produced and hosted by Michael Bartz. Original theme song by Gabriel Thaine. If you would like to get in touch with us, please email info at in over my head podcast.com. Special thanks to Telus STORYHIVE for making this show possible.

(26:50):
I'm trying to save the planet or will someone please save me.