(00:01):
Well, I'm in over my head. No one told me trying to keep my footprint small was harder than I thought it could be. I'm in over my head. What do I really need? Trying to save the planet over someone, please save me, trying to save the planet over someone. Please save me.

Michael (00:25):
Welcome to you over my head. I'm Michael Bartz. My guest today is Chris Henderson. Chris is the executive director of indigenous clean energy, a not-for-profit, which advances indigenous inclusion in Canada's energy, future economy. Chris is an eco-entrepreneur community leader and a mental innovator for the past 35 years. He has led and been at the forefront of groundbreaking Canadian enterprises, as well as social and ecological initiatives. He's also the author of Aboriginal power, clean energy and the future of Canada's first peoples, welcome to you over my head, Chris.

Chris (01:00):
Well, thank you for inviting me.

Michael (01:02):
So in looking into the various aspects of the electricity grid and decarbonization, I came across something that I hadn't quite considered before, which is the role of indigenous communities. It seems to me, they have their own unique challenges and solutions, which I'm really interested in exploring in our conversation today. So to begin, I'd like to give our listeners a bit more context. Can you tell me generally about the unique energy needs of our indigenous communities here in Canada?

Chris (01:25):
Well, I mean, I don't think indigenous communities are different than other communities in terms of their needs. They need power for their homes and their businesses, and then if they have electric cars to charge them. But I think it's important to recognize that indigenous participation in clean energy is not just about their own needs. It's about supplying the energy needs for Canadians. And in fact, today indigenous means own co-owned or have a defined benefit agreement with almost 20% of Canada's electricity generating infrastructure. They are in fact, the largest clean energy community in Canada, apart from utilities.

Michael (01:57):
Oh, wow. That's really interesting. So tell me more about that. How did that come about?

Chris (02:01):
It's happened about that over the last 20 years through a series of changes mean, first of all, generating hydropower or wind power, solar power you are using what is traditional in Indian land, somewhere in Canada, they may not own it today and they may be owned by originally would've been first nations metis or Inuit land, but as a result of this has been developed and indigenous rights have become stronger indigenous community started saying, look, if you're gonna be developing a hydro project and you know, you're developing on our traditional land, we wanna be a partner in that. We wanna be a co-owner and that has started back in the early two thousands and accelerated since then. And now basically every major, in fact, every small, renewable energy project in Canada, or almost everyone has indigenous participation as a partner, sometimes a majority owner, sometimes a majority owner and sometimes ownership.

Michael (02:48):
Okay. Well, super interesting, cuz yeah, I was, when I was looking into it, some of the articles I read were more about some remote communities that were relying on diesel power generators to power their communities and such, but that's good that they're involved in, in so many other projects when, when comes to clean energy.

Chris (03:02):
Well, yeah, no, it's it represents an almost over a hundred billion investment of indigenous committees in the clean energy sector, particularly wind hydro solar and bioenergy and the off-grid committees are a part of this, for sure. These are reductions, but let's remember. I mean there are about 300 off-grid committees in Canada. They represent a city it would be the size of Peterborough Ontario. It's not that large overall the bigger part is the main participation of indigenous committees in the main electricity grid.

Michael (03:27):
Okay. Yeah. And, and when you talk about that participation and then being involved in these various projects, I mean, have there been any sort of barriers to getting involved with them?

Chris (03:35):
The majority of the electricity supplies are controlled by provincial agencies and sometimes by provincial or private utilities. And so therefore indigenous involvement in that space has been very dependent on what that policy evolution has been. It started first in Ontario and BC principally in the early around 2005, 2010, where they said, look, we think that as part of recognizing indigenous rights and territories, they encouraged indigenous ownership in new energy projects that were coming online. So as the energy system became more diversified and it wasn't just controlled by a monopoly of utilities, for example, BC hydro. Now you have over 80-100 1st nations projects that supply part into the BC grid. And so it was an evolution that occurred that tied together. Several forces of change. One is the need for cleaner energy to reduce carbon reliance. Secondly is that indigenous communities assert their rights and those rights becoming stronger and stronger in terms of legal recognition and also into times and government policy and finally the actual government policy, the provincial territory level in terms of providing incentives of providing recognition that indigenous community being suppliers or clean energy was something that our us as a society should have.

Chris (04:46):
Okay, well, I'm, I'm glad that work is happening. And how does your organization fit into this equation?

(04:51):
Well, Indigenous Clean Energy, is the national hub for this leadership. First of all, I started doing projects back in the late 20th century. And then since that time I've helped personally advise around 30, 35 indigenous communities to become partners in major clean energy projects around the country. And around 2015, we recognized that there needed to be an indigenous organization that built indigenous skills, indigenous know how to become really good partners or in fact, developers clean energy and indigenous clean energy evolved out of that. And so right now, indigenous clean energy works in every region country. We have almost 10 major programs that are capacity-building training oriented to make sure that indigenous communities get the know-how skills. They need to develop the energy projects and negotiate partnerships, gain financing, and that's what ice does.

Michael (05:36):
Okay, great. And do you have any maybe specific stories about some of the communities that you've worked with?

Chris (05:40):
Yeah. I mean, I've worked with many different communities around the country. So you, you may say, for example, the Dokis community and the French river in Ontario, which connects the Ottawa river watershed with the great lakes, it wasn't affecting the highway of the coureurs des bois and the fur trade. And the French river was damned by three outlets back in the early-mid 18 hundreds by the government of Canada for colonial interest to do lumbering. So those dams have been there all the way long. So the Dokei community about 10 years ago, as Ontario went to diverse way away from coal, they bid along with a partner to generate par beside one of those hydro dams, which they did. And it's been my privilege to both rep and now I'm honoured to be an honorary member of the community as well. And that's just one story among hundreds. I mean, you have over 200 major clean energy projects with almost 3000 small clean energy projects that have indigenous ownership and participation, in every regional Canada.

Michael (06:32):
Oh, that's great. And when we talk about clean energy, is that mostly hydro or wind or so, or is it a combination of these things?

Chris (06:39):
It's a combination, you know, I would say, you know, in 2005, 2015 period, it was probably mostly hydro and then a transition occurred to become more diversified. And now I think the majority would be in fact, solar and wind. And also, I will also say biomass is the odd geothermal project. They aren't as common as others, but now you would see most of them being wind and solar. But I think part of the evolution related to the grid and also for carbon reduction is how renewable energy integrates with other forms of energy. And so you may have, you know, wind energy being connected to a hydro facility. So you have the ability to use wind when you have it. You use hydro when there's no wind and when there's excess wind, you may use it to create pump storage. So, you increase the reservoir to generate more hydro at a later point in time, maybe with seasonal fluctuations or lower high water times. So while they've been involved with hydro, they've also been involved with solar and wind and more so and now biomass is coming online. But I increasingly see that this is gonna be a more connected system. That's more integrated recognizing the need that renewables need to deal with the intermittent, see a power cause the wind doesn't blow in the sun, doesn't shine all the time. So storage becomes really important. So our system needs to be more interconnected

Michael (07:47):
For sure. And, and are the indigenous communities that you've been working with? Are they involved in not only maybe the installation of these things, but also the planning and implementation and other areas of the clean transition?

Chris (07:59):
I mean, I would say the really important word, Michael is just transition and just transition is not just a transition to cleaning energy, but also clean energy. That's done sustainably that does not impact nature. Like, you know, places that are particularly important to wildlife or species and laterally, the just transition also recognizing that the traditional treaty holders and the rights are indigenous communities. And so in order to have a just transition, it's not simply being involved with building projects, it's actually owning them. If you're owning them, you have to be part of the decision-making. And I think if it's not doing that and you don't have ownership and you don't have decision making where indigenous communities are at the table, it's not a just transition. It's an unfair transition. You may get cleaner energy, but frankly in most cases, when they're not involved with decision makings, a lot of bad decisions are made about projects and projects that maybe shouldn't be done or they're done in the wrong place. Having indigenous people at the table does a number of very value-added things. They make sure projects are designed better. They're less impactful in the environment, but they also have greater community support and greater local economic benefit for indigenous communities and local communities. And so it's not simply a matter of building and, and working on projects. In fact, it's, it's being owners of projects. That means you make meaningful decisions together.

Michael (09:05):
For sure. And so just generally, do you feel like this just transition is happening? Is it, is it successful? How are things going in that regard?

Chris (09:14):
I mean, you only have to look at a metric when I just said earlier that 20% of the energy-generating electricity-generating structure in the country is owned co-owned or has a financial benefit with indigenous communities. That's a pretty high metric indigenous communities own 10 to 20%, the clean energy infrastructure as all municipalities put together, indigenous communities own much more the in the private corporation by having participated in projects, you really ensure that projects are designed well and done well. And that's what we need to ensure is that just transition is truly a just transition.

Michael (09:46):
In a previous episode that I had in talking with John Chief Calf, I learned a bit about the indigenous perspective on nature. And he talked about it being a circular intelligence system and how we're connected to our natural environment. And I see this way of thinking is very powerful in your experience. I mean, how can the indigenous perspective on nature inform all of our environmental efforts?

Chris (10:04):
Well, I mean, I think it harkens back to the term of just transition because indigenous communities are the original stewards of the land. They understand how the species work. They understand how climate works when they're involved and their co-owners and their joint decision-makers on the development of clean energy projects. They bring their perspective on nature and traditional knowledge into the design of those projects. They make sure that the design is not in a place that affects wildlife or species or medicines or habitat. They make sure that in fact, that you are in fact, maybe even storing habitat, I go back to the story of the French river that I explained when the colonial interest built the dams for colonial interest to have lumbering development. They also destroyed some of the habitats. So when the Dokis Okikendawt hydro project was built in the French river, the Walla habitat was restored.

(10:53):
And today when I go the, to that site, I see walla and sturgeon in multitudes. They made sure that the riparian zones of Blanding turtles were protected. They made sure that the archeological zones that respected their traditional ancestors were also preserved. So when you have indigenous participation in clean energy projects, they can reflect that traditional knowledge. They can reflect their knowledge of the land of the waters, and they can make project design, better project location better. And sometimes that means you perhaps shouldn't build a renewable energy project, even if it reduces carbon because it has a negative impact on nature. And I think that would be truly respectful of not only indigenous communities but what we need with, with action on climate and clean energy. Let's do it right. Let's not do it without due regard for land and nature and the traditional nature of the land.

Michael (11:41):
Have you seen that happen where they want to implement something? And then they say, actually, it would be better if we didn't because it's protecting the land.

Sarah (11:48):
Absolutely. It also requires that project developers and utilities have respect for that. I think today, by and large, there is, but even then there are decisions made that are very poor. I mean, BC hydros developed a large Site C hydro project in peace river, well, it's a dumb project. First of all, it's gonna increase hydro rates and power rates and BC at a ridiculously high number. It never should have been built, the indigenous community said it never should have been built. But BC hydro I got it, the government of BC drove it through with Fiat and then run rough shot of traditional interests. So what do we see now is we're seeing a, project that in fact is having a negative impact on the ecology of the peace river, including the ecology of land around the peace river, the habitat of moose and the elk and other wildlife.

(12:30):
And we're seeing a project that in fact will now not be the smart thing to do for BC hydro for the future electricity. It would've been way better to do a bunch of smaller projects and, and, and had more wind and solar in different parts of the province. So I definitely know a project that I've been stopped because enlightened project development companies, utilities have said, you're right. We do respect that it shouldn't be built there or built at all, but I, I still see, you know, frankly dumb decisions being taken by governments and utilities when they think they're doing the right thing. And the funny part of it is when they, when they actually not the funny part, it's the sad part when they actually go ahead, you know, it ends up being the wrong decisions for many different reasons, including economically.

Michael (13:08):
That's interesting. Yeah. And I guess being energy companies, their priority is to provide energy. And I guess a second, everything is, is maybe protecting the land. So that's too bad that, that, that one example happened. But I'm, I'm glad that you're seeing other examples that things were perhaps diverted.

Chris (13:23):
Yeah. It's not just one example. I mean, you can look at the Lower Churchill project in Labrador, same end. It's now three times the original price it's gonna if it went ahead with, and the federal government didn't give the, and Labrador, billions and billions, and we're talking over now, close to 15 billion of free money. It basically would bankrupt Labrador. Well, you know, I mean that's tragic, that's ridiculous. And I think the wake-up call has been heard by some but has not been heard by others. And I think indigenous that would also extend Michael's local ownership and local participation on municipalities in cities or, or communities that are blended indigenous and non-indigenous communities or in fact non-indigenous communities. I mean, I love the community called Budanibik that's near the county of Antigonish in Nova Scotia. There's is a solar project being jointly developed by the Paq’tnkek First Nation of Mi'kmaw community and the county of Antigonish.

(14:12):
That makes a lot of sense way better than large corporations. So I think local ownership and local participation in clean energy is essential to resolving the climate crisis is because when you do that, you get a greater acceleration of change to a clean energy future. And you get a greater acceleration of change that reduces greenhouse gas emissions. And so I think that that means having energy interest in the part of provincial territory, governments and part of the utility and even the way our legislation and policies are written by the part of how we regulate electricity, for example, is essentially flawed. I mean, these things were done in the early 20th century. We're now in the third decade of the 21st century, we need to get a wake-up call to really understand that we have to change the policy parameters while some good things have been done. We certainly have more change ahead of us

Michael (14:56):
On that note. This show is about empowering our listeners to take action on climate change. How can regular people get involved in this conversation?

Chris (15:04):
Well, first of all, I'm appreciative of shows like you that are sharing the story, but there's a lot more to share. You can again go on to power of the people TV series that one of our very strong advisory council members, Melina Laboucan-Massimo developed, they can stream that on our website of indigenous clean energy.com. We have tons of videos that they can hear the stories and hear what impactful and positive they are around the country. Anyone can join the ice network, it's ice net.org. Don't go to ice network because that's a figure skating site and that's not us. Okay. So ice net. work is us. Anyone can join there's no cost. They can hear about the stories being shared every week, what's happening around the country. And it will then create opportunities for them to both be advocates for change or change a, for a net-zero future.

(15:47):
By saying to the government of Canada, the government of their provinces and territory. Are we our policies? Are you running on electric platforms? Are you taking mandates forward that in fact respect that? And part of that respect is recognizing that indigenous committees want to be at the table of change and have been, and already are, but could be more. And that move gets into other forms of renewables beyond renewable energy. It gets into energy efficiency and housing. It gets to advanced energy systems like district, the energy gets into electrical, eco charging infrastructure. You know, so I think, I think for Canadians that are passionate about action on climate and the energy learn the story, the stories are there and we're pleased to share them. I think it's really important that we democratize climate action. I think it's important that we decolonize energy. We need to decolonize the power as mean the dynamics have changed and it's not to say anyone gets to have an insidious interest like a James Bond villain.

(16:38):
But in fact, what we have is that we're trapped and we're trapped in the way we thought of things in the past. And so, and, and that means that we've had large corporate interests and government central control of the energy that needs to change. This is about democratizing the energy feature that we have that empowers local energy generation tribute, energy generation, the converting our transport to electrification, converting our homes, to use things like heat bumps versus oil or gas, or for heating over the cold winter. And it also entails offering opportunities for individuals to support that in both government policies. But sometimes, you know, I live in Ottawa, we have a renewable energy co-op that anyone can invest in. And in fact, there are over 400 people that I've given millions of dollars to that renewable energy co-op. So they can invest in solar on the rooftops of schools or churches.

(17:24):
To me, that is the kind of hands-on ownership that really makes a change. And I think I would also say that while we definitely appreciate the support of indigenous, he is being part of the clean energy revolution or part of any Canadian. I think every Canadian should say, what can I do in my own home? Because if you can combat climate, not only are you helping yourself and the future generation of your children and their grandchildren or your grandchildren, but you're also in fact, recognizing that climate has to have a disproportional effect on indigenous communities by changing their habitat that is affecting their ability to grow food and, and, and survive. So any of those, your lists that can go in that direction, we welcome them and we'd welcome any of them to participate in our community.

Michael (18:04):
No, that's great. And yeah, I think for ourselves, we live in an off-grid, tiny house in just that idea of that you are walking your talk and if you want to help in saving the planet that you are doing something about it. So I think that's really helpful.

Chris (18:17):
That's great. Thanks for, thanks for the time to join you.

Michael (18:18):
Yeah. Thanks so much for being on the show, Chris. Well, that was my conversation with Chris. Something I learned that I didn't know was how involved indigenous communities are in our energy projects already. So for me, that was, that was helpful, but obviously, we have a lot of work to do and I like that he talked about the different small initiatives and, and small community projects that we can all get involved with. So I think that was some great information. Well, that's all for me. I'm Michael Bartz. Here's the feeling a little less, you know, over our head when it comes to saving the planet. We'll see you again, soon. In Over My Head was produced and hosted by Michael Bartz original theme song by Gabriel Thaine. If you would like to get in touch with us, please email info@enovermyheadpodcast.com. Special thanks to Telus STORYHIVE for making this show possible.

(19:01):
I'm trying to save the planet or will someone please save me.