(00:00):
Well I'm in over my head. No one told me trying to keep my footprint small was harder than I thought it could be. I'm in over my head. What do I really need? Trying to save the planet over someone, please save me trying to save the planet over someone. Please say me.

(00:23):
Welcome to in over my head, I'm Michael Bartz. My guest today is Dr. Runa Das. Dr. Das is an associate professor in the college of interdisciplinary studies at Royal roads university. Her program of research is positioned at the intersection of equity, energy, and sustainability. She is interested in the human dimensions of energy, use energy, transitions, energy, poverty, and decarbonization, particularly with respect to the residential sector. Professor Das leads the behavior energy environment, research lab, and as the area to lead for community housing, Canada, she has received funding from many agencies, notably the social science and humanities research council of Canada. Welcome to UN my head professor dos.

(01:05):
Thanks for having me Michael.

(01:07):
In talking with my past guests about decarbonization, something that came up was the just transition. So I'm talking with guests all about that, and you're an expert on human energy interactions and relationships and what that means for the transition. And you've done research on energy, poverty, community housing, and more so I'm interested to see where our conversation goes today. So to start, I think maybe we should talk a bit about energy, poverty. I did talk with Helen Corbett from the all one sky foundation about energy poverty, but since this is a focus of your research, I think it's worth talking about a little bit more if by chance listeners haven't heard that episode, perhaps we can start with a brief definition of energy poverty. So what exactly is energy poverty?

(01:42):
Yes, for sure. So broadly speaking energy, poverty is the idea of deprivation due to an inability to attain necessary and adequate amounts of energy services. So energy services here, being things like heating, cooling, lighting, cooking, transportation, and some even say connection to information via channels such as the internet. So what do we mean when referring to deprivation? Well, people need to consume or use energy. If I don't use a certain amount, for example, to heat my house, I may be too cold at times. Conversely, if I'm unable to cool my house, I may be too hot. So it's a unique type of deprivation connected to energy use, or I should say lack of energy use living in energy. Poverty has been shown to have significant impacts such as exacerbating conditions like arthritis and increasing the risk of respiratory and cardiovascular diseases and mortality from these diseases. It has also been shown to impact mental health and increased stress. So at the end of the day, using energy is being seen as absolutely critical and necessary for modern-day life

(02:51):
Nationally. How many people are affected by energy poverty?

(02:54):
Well, this is a very good question. So currently it can depend on how you measure it in Canada. There has been limited defining of what energy poverty is and there's no formal legislation around it. So my colleagues and I have used the idea of an energy burden as a proxy measure for determining energy, poverty, energy burdens are defined as a percentage of income spent on energy costs. And so we looked at how many households in Canada are spending more than 10% of their income on their energy costs. And we found that it's between seven and 9% of Canadian households. There's a range here in the numbers because we adjusted for housing costs in our estimating. So when we don't adjust for housing costs, 7% of households are in energy poverty. When we take housing costs into account, we get the 9% figure. So adjusting for housing costs means removing costs like rent or mortgage payments from a household's income to give a better sense of disposable income.

(03:57):
For the most part, this causes a household to have less disposable income, to put towards their energy costs and why we see the energy poverty figure increase. Our findings are based on data that links people's energy costs to their actual usage rather than what they might need to use. So with the use of this indicator, with this data, we can't technically tell if there are people who are in energy poverty, because they can't spend 10% of their income on energy costs due to financial strain. But my colleagues and I ran additional analyses on top of the 10% ratio that suggests that there are indeed people in Canada who may not be spending enough under consuming energy and therefore going without. So what we did is we looked at the spending of these two groups, those in energy, poverty, and those not in energy poverty next, we looked at the proportion of a household spending that was allocated to energy spending specifically.

(04:59):
So here, we're not looking at the proportion of energy spending over income, but energy spending over total spending. So this is what is known as the budget share. And we found that households in energy, poverty spend more on energy costs as a proportion of their total spending, compared to households, not in energy, poverty, even more for this group, the spending fluctuates. So at lower levels of household income with increases in income, we see proportional increases in spending on spending on energy. We notice this trend continuing and then stabilizing at a spot around the household income mark of around $50,000. And here households are allocating approximately 16% of their overall budget to spending on energy. So just to give you a bit of comparison, we didn't find this trend with households, not in energy poverty. These households did not spend more on energy services with increases in household income as a proportion of their overall spending this ladder group.

(06:08):
Also on average appears to be spending about 3% of their budget on energy expenditures or energy costs. So what this really signals to me is that there is indeed a problem and that there are people who might be living in deprivation. I do want to mention quickly that there are other indicators out there that have been used to measure energy poverty. So my colleague, professor Mylene Reva in the department of geography at McGill and who studies the connection between health and housing also investigated how many Canadians are in energy poverty using the 10% indicator, another measure called twice the median. And so this measure looks at what median spending is on energy services for everyone, and then doubles it. So in Canada, median spending on energy services is approximately 3% of household income. And so they looked at how many households are exceeding double that amount, or specifically 6% on energy costs and found that up to 19% of Canadian households to be an energy poverty indicators are really tricky, but I do think they are important.

(07:15):
I think it'll be difficult to address a challenge of energy poverty if we can't measure it. I think also that indicators vary according to context according to context, energy, poverty research in Canada is quite nascent, as you probably know. And, and some of the indicators I've mentioned are based on previous work from other jurisdictions, notably the United Kingdom, which was one of the first countries to come up with a real energy, poverty or fuel poverty policy. But those types of indicators might not hold in the Canadian context. For example, we're seeing more need for space cooling. It's becoming very significant, which contrasts with commonly held notions that on energy poverty has to do with a lack of inefficient space heating. Perhaps you've heard of the saying heat or eat, but last summer in BC with the heat dome, hundreds of people died. So we're seeing different and evolving energy service needs. The need for space cooling is only going to increase in the near future in Canada. So ultimately energy poverty is a multidimensional and complex problem, which is typically narrowly defined in technical or economic terms. So the idea here is to gain better understanding and move towards more sophisticated indicators, which is something I'm working on with my team.

(08:33):
And I find it interesting that you also included Internet use or things like that sort of technology access within that framework as well.

(08:41):
Yes. I, I think it's interesting to look at energy services broadly and especially in current day, access to information is quite important. So I think it's a great way to think about the energy services that, that we need.

(08:56):
And so does geography matter, let's say within Canada, how we look at energy poverty and, and who's in energy poverty.

(09:03):
Absolutely. So lots of things are variable when it comes to geography, energy infrastructures, climate this is different depending on where one lives or the jurisdiction and the, the geography and this impacts how energy is accessed, afforded and used in places that are more rural. For example, distribution costs can vary things like heating systems and the fuel source used with them varies according to jurisdiction. And so this is going to impact how one uses energy. For example, in Ontario, natural gas is a dominant fuel source for heating and has been traditionally cheaper to heat with. And so using electricity can be more expensive if used in conjunction with certain types of heating systems like baseboard heating, but heating with electricity, doesn't have to be necessarily more expensive if the right type of heating equipment is used such as heat pumps, a heating system, which will be more important as we move towards decarbonizing buildings and also dwelling types in different types of geographies that also can play a part in, in all of this as well.

(10:12):
And let's go into that a bit more. So what sort of dwelling types?

(10:15):
Well, there are certain types of buildings that are associated with energy poverty, more so than others. Buildings that are inefficient due to being old or deferred maintenance can be problematic. And in Canada, community housing buildings are associated, particularly with these problems. Community housing is made up of social affordable and cooperative housing, and it's home to approximately 4% of all Canadian households. So building performance varies due to different factors, including characteristics, such as the year it was built. And as I mentioned, this can be associated with just older everything. It means that the poorest performing buildings are usually the older ones. The majority of Canadian community housing units are between 20 and 50 years old. They're struggling with structural and technical problems due to backlogs and maintenance repairs and inefficient, heating, and cooling systems leading to higher energy consumption, CO2 emissions, and higher average energy intensity compared to other residential buildings. So through my lab, I've got wonderful graduate students who are trying to tackle some of these issues. We're doing things like looking at the decision-making surrounding retrofits and community housing to better understand the partnerships and the strategies that are being used. We're looking at costs and benefits of using different heating and cooling technologies and trying to study these things holistically. So we're interested in understanding economic gains, but also environmental and social benefits. All these investigations we hope will contribute to better understanding what can assist this sector to be more sustainable and resilient.

(11:58):
Do you see those buildings getting the necessary upgrades and perhaps getting the solar modules or the heat pumps?

(12:04):
I certainly hope so. I think here that the policy support is really, really important and critical for assisting this type of housing to get those kinds of upgrades. And certainly policy here is really, really important.

(12:20):
Yeah. Cuz it's not necessarily about individual change. Like with this community housing, they may not have as much say. And so if perhaps having bigger organizations or government come in and make those changes, sounds like it, that would be a, a positive thing.

(12:32):
Absolutely. In, in order to decarbonize buildings and the residential sector, this is likely going to be a, a big issue as we move forward in terms of implementation, there is some individual decision-making that will be happening that will be impacting transitioning. And there are gaps here such as awareness of heat pumps. Let's say for example, an upfront costs. For example, if I'm struggling to pay my bill, then the thought of upfront costs could be a non-starter no matter how good the payback period is. Similarly, if I'm a senior, I might not be looking to make an investment in something that might last me 15 years. If what I currently have is working and who will continue to work in the near future, perhaps I've recently purchased a new home and it comes with a relatively new furnace or boiler. Well, what's going to get me to get rid of that. It would be like getting a brand new fridge and then realizing we're transitioning. And so needing to get rid of it. There could be feelings of sunk costs. These are all problems and perhaps really opportunities, but they do need to be addressed and figured out and household and the public and people do need that support.

(13:41):
And so do you see those changes happening where people are getting the necessary help to install heat pumps and, and make it affordable and things like that?

(13:50):
I don't see it happening currently. I think we're still trying to figure it out. I think decision-makers are still trying to figure out what something like energy poverty is, but I, I do hope for a better understanding on their part as we move forward with these transitions.

(14:12):
You've also done research on the lived experience of energy poverty in Toronto and Vancouver. Tell me a bit more about this,

(14:18):
Right? So this has to do with what I mentioned before and needing a better understanding of the depth of the problem and moving away. Well, not necessarily moving away, but thinking of different types of indicators for looking at energy poverty. So with the lived experiences work, we're looking at, you know, what does it look like on the ground? And I did some work with folks in Vancouver and Toronto and collaboration with acorn Canada to try and get a sense of exactly this acorn Canada is an independent association of low to moderate-income people. I'm currently working on really understanding the interview data. But what I can say is that there very much is a lived experience component to energy, poverty. There are people who are really struggling with their energy services, it's costing too much or not getting adequate amounts due to it costing too much or due to their building conditions. This is really important because it helps with the, so what it helps with making the issue more real.

(15:19):
Yeah. Cause I think for, let's say your average person, maybe they don't consider this as a problem or something that needs to be addressed cuz they just don't think about a day to day. So I think it's helpful to bring awareness to it for sure. And so you've researched energy, poverty programs in Ontario. Tell me a bit more about this.

(15:35):
Sure. I'm leading a study that examines initiatives that assisted energy port energy vulnerable households in Ontario from 2003 to 2018. So this was when the liberals were in power here. We tried to find initiatives that could in some way help with energy, poverty and vulnerability, knowing that there is no official legislation around these. So we found 40 initiatives and these largely are within the broader policy areas of energy efficiency and savings, housing provision, poverty reduction, healthcare and climate change mitigation. We categorize these initiatives into three different main types ones that provide financial support, such as bill rebates, energy efficiency, and savings. So retrofits, retrofit programs and consumer protection. So something that would assist with disconnections, for example, a lot of these policies are good, but there are gaps. So for example, a lot of the energy efficiency and savings initiatives, they are mostly targeted to homeowners. We know that there's a lot of renters in the country and this is likely to keep increasing, especially with our housing crisis. So what are the supports here for those people? This actually needs to be tackled if we want to decarbonize buildings, it's not only homeowners that are part or comprise the residential sector. And so these are the things that need to be looked at to ensure that we transition well and that we're not leaving certain folks

(17:23):
Out. Yeah. And so what sort of policies would renters have compared to homeowners?

(17:29):
This is a question that a lot of us are trying to figure out. I don't think we have clear answers. I think the first thing that really needs to be acknowledged is that there is something here that renters do need these supports that we can't have programs for a homeowner. And we also need to think that a lot of the building stock that exists will continue to exist. So it's not about homeowners and new builds, you know, new houses for homeowners. And so we need to invest in programs for those that are low income, for those that are renters to progress, transition, and it has a dual benefit, it has a dual benefit for helping these people, but also for decarbonizing the sector. And for transitioning,

(18:18):
One interesting finding that I saw in your study was about energy poverty and the rate by gender. So 62% being female and 38% being male, which kind of surprised me. So why would there be more women in energy, poverty?

(18:33):
Well, I think these characteristics of households in energy, poverty relate to other characteristics of households that are in energy poverty. So for example, being a low-income earner, which relates to being an energy poverty is more often on average, an issue for females than males. And so it can manifest in females experiencing the phenomenon more similarly being a single parent is also associated with higher levels of energy, poverty. And this again relates to females being single parents more often than males. So I think these findings broadly reflect some of the larger social disparities that exist.

(19:09):
I guess that's something we didn't actually touch on yet was what causes someone to be energy poor. So if I remember correctly, it was mostly based on income, but what are some other factors that causes someone to be in energy, poverty

(19:20):
In the industrialized and developed countries? It appears that the main factors involve the triad of high energy costs, low income, as you mentioned, and inefficient dwelling conditions in our research, we confirm that what's driving Canadian energy burdens our proxy measure for energy poverty indeed includes household income, the energy efficiency of homes and geography.

(19:45):
And so with possibly maybe the increases in energy costs that are kind of out of our control. Do you see more people getting into energy poverty that perhaps weren't there before?

(19:55):
Absolutely. It's definitely possible. It depends on how we conceptualize the idea or define energy, poverty and energy poverty, the way we think about it can be diversified. So if we think about something like transportation, which we didn't really account for in our study, if we took that into account that could certainly increase the numbers of, of those in energy, poverty, especially in a country where a lot of people are driving because of our geography and because of the availability of, you know, public transportation in certain areas. So I think most certainly that could impact the numbers.

(20:33):
And lastly, this show is about empowering our listeners to take action on the climate crisis. So what can people do today to address the issues that we've talked about?

(20:42):
It would be great if people do the things they can do in their day-to-day lives and to consider the environment and the climate in their decision-making as much as possible. We know people are more climate-conscious and we know people care, but individuals and households can only do so much and they do need the supports that I've been talking about. So people need to make it be known what those supports should look like and support decision-makers that they think can fulfill here. As far as I can tell politicians want to stay in power. So the public can choose to keep them there or not based on their political propositions and their willingness to follow through with them.

(21:24):
Yeah. I think that's potentially empowering because if it's just an individual trying to make that change by themselves, like the show being in over my head, trying to save the planet, getting the government involved and getting the higher powers involved, seems like it would be a good way to address something as big as the just transition and energy poverty. So I definitely appreciate that. Yeah. Well, great. Professor Das, this has been very educational. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

(21:48):
Thanks so much for having me, Michael.

(21:50):
Well, that was my talk with professor Das. I think my biggest takeaway was her holistic approach to this topic. It wasn't just about heating and cooling. Even your internet was part of your energy consumption and your transportation. So I think the more that we can look at this holistically, the better able we are to address it. And if you're getting something from these conversations, I encourage you to tell a friend about it because the more people we have addressing issues like the just transition, the better off will be. Well, that's all for me. I'm Michael Bartz. Here's the feeling a little less in over our head when it comes to saving the planet. We'll see again, soon. In over my head was produced and hosted by Michael Bartz original theme song by Gabriel Thain. If you would like to get in touch with us email info@inovermyheadpodcast.com special. Thanks to Telus STORYHIVE for making this show possible.

(22:37):
I'm trying to save the planet or will someone please save me.